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Topic: It's About Time!
The coeds are back....it's hot.....life is good. [CooterBrown] - created 06:22pm Aug 15,
2000 EST
I can't find a link yet, but a 37 year old female school teacher has been
charged with rape, child abuse and other charges following an alleged
sexual relationship with a 12 year old boy. The incidents took place in
Rockville, MD.
It's about time that females suffer the same penalties as males do in
these type situations.
The coeds are back....it's hot.....life is good. [CooterBrown] - 06:23pm Aug 15, 2000 EST (#1 of 24)
I'm sure that Maat will show up and say it was either part of the boy's education, or that he was in love.
BUSH-NADER 2000 [Hardigan] - 06:26pm Aug 15, 2000 EST (#2 of 24)
waddya mean about time, Cooter? Isn't Mary Kay still in prison?
The coeds are back....it's hot.....life is good. [CooterBrown] - 06:27pm Aug 15, 2000 EST (#3 of 24)
To my knowledge, she was never charged with rape. I'm not sure if she went back to prison, or is in a
hospital.
I've upped my standards, now up yours. [charolais] - 06:30pm Aug 15, 2000 EST (#4 of 24)
Why in God's name would any 37 year old woman want to do a 12 year old kid?
This is beyond my comprehension.
[birdzeye2] - 06:33pm Aug 15, 2000 EST (#5 of 24)
Cooter - I wouldn't hold my breath. Rockville MD is the same place where a judge said it "takes two to
tango" in another statutory rape case. :-(
The coeds are back....it's hot.....life is good. [CooterBrown] - 06:34pm Aug 15, 2000 EST (#6 of 24)
At least she's been charged. That's far more than has happened before.
[birdzeye2] - 06:36pm Aug 15, 2000 EST (#7 of 24)
I'm glad too. I live in this county and I hate to think that the county teachers can prey on the students.
It doesn't matter whether the perp is male or female; the effect on the poor kid is no doubt just as
traumatic either way.
Save Roe v Wade [~Libby~] - 06:43pm Aug 15, 2000 EST (#8 of 24)
Cooter, you make it sound like women have been getting off and not held responsible for heinous
crimes like rape.
I don't think that's probably the case. I don't think as many women are guilty of those kinds of crimes, as
men. Do you have reason to believe women are being protected from prosecution?
[Silky Butter] - 06:46pm Aug 15, 2000 EST (#9 of 24)
It's about time that females suffer the same penalties as males do in these type situations.
Many sexual offenders who prey on children get away with it. MALES included. Most sexual crimes go
unreported.
I think that the system is not that tough on them as a whole. That is why all of these laws have recently
been proposed and passed (e.g. Megan's Law)
It doesn't matter whether the perp is male or female; the effect on the poor kid is no doubt just as traumatic
either way.
Very true.
I had a woman tell this to my friend after my friend told the woman what happened to her as a teenager.
***I can talk about personal responsibility any damn time I please. I have photographed and counseled
women who were raped, not coaxed, but violently assulted, and with girls who assumed because they
are women and the guy is supposed to have permission to have sex, they are safe anywhere.. that's bs.
A girl who has been made a pass at and still goes to a boys or a man's house, or any secluded spot can
not say she had no idea what he wanted. The litigation, victim, not myfalut... his fault... or hers.. or *it
can't possibly be ME* crap that floats around these days is a large part of the problem.***
Very cold.
And part of the reason why many victims, even child victims, do not come forward.
It's quite popular to blame the victim and make them feel awful because the girl didn't take *proper*
steps to avoid whatever happened. I think that's very wrong. That adds to the trauma. It reinforces the
guilt, and it gives the scumbags who prey on children more of an excuse to do so.
Anton [Anton] - 06:48pm Aug 15, 2000 EST (#10 of 24)
Go here.
She is in jail now for violating her probation.
Oh, and she got pregnant a second time while doing so!
(A little Twilight Zone music, please).
Power is the only Issue--Isn't it Obvious! [Lucque] - 08:05pm Aug 15, 2000 EST (#11 of 24)
Cooter
The woman is also being investigated for other possible sex crimes.
She went to the home of another student and asked the mother if she could tutor her son privately.
The mother became suspicious and rejected her offer.
The coeds are back....it's hot.....life is good. [CooterBrown] - 11:31pm Aug 15, 2000 EST (#12 of
24)
Libby, I didn't say that women committed crimes of this type as often as men. They just don't get charged
like the men, and there isn't the publicity.
Thanks for the info, Lucque, and for the update on Mary Kay, Anton.
I never could find anything on the Maryland story on the net.
Linux.....Coming to a toaster near you [TSean] - 11:40pm Aug 15, 2000 EST (#13 of 24)
I never could find anything on the Maryland story on the net.
go here
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 11:54pm Aug 15, 2000 EST (#14 of 24)
It's quite popular to blame the victim and make them feel awful because the girl didn't take
*proper* steps to avoid whatever happened. I think that's very wrong. That adds to the trauma.
It reinforces the guilt, and it gives the scumbags who prey on children more of an excuse to do
so.
Its not about blame, necessarily. While its not excuseable for a man to have sex with an unwilling or
unconscious partner, I think its equally inexcuseable for women not to take some responsibility in
keeping themselves safe - not take responsibility for the rape or assault - but in responsibility for their
own safety. (I’m talking grown women, not children). That’s all a part of life, is knowing what situations in
which to stay out. It’s not the woman‘s fault for rape or assault, but we need to start teaching young
women to be more aware, and more critical thinking when making judgments of whether to go off with a
man alone, or whether binge drinking in a frat house is a good idea. Also, with this, they also should be
taught not to be afraid to report incidences IMMEDIATELY, and to follow through on prosecutions.
Libby, I do believe their are proper steps to keep oneself safe - it does not excuse the rape/assault in
any way - but if women were more proactive and aggressive and EMPOWERED, this would go a long
way in preventing a lot of unfortunate situations; and go a long way in prosecuting offenders. In many
cases, the offender is a husband, or lover, and to stop them is to stop the cycle of violence that creates
preditors/offenders in the first place.
The coeds are back....it's hot.....life is good. [CooterBrown] - 11:59pm Aug 15, 2000 EST (#15 of
24)
Thanks for the link, TSean. That was a little more info than was in my paper.
[McDuffy] - 12:12am Aug 16, 2000 EST (#16 of 24)
While its not excuseable for a man to have sex with an unwilling or unconscious partner, I think its equally
inexcuseable
I'm sure Maat will come in to help your argument.
[McDuffy] - 12:14am Aug 16, 2000 EST (#17 of 24)
It's quite popular to blame the victim and make them feel awful because the girl didn't take *proper*
steps to avoid whatever happened. I think that's very wrong. That adds to the trauma. It reinforces the
guilt, and it gives the scumbags who prey on children more of an excuse to do so.
Its not about blame, necessarily. While its not excuseable for a man to have sex with an unwilling
or unconscious partner, I think its equally inexcuseable for women not to take some responsibility in
keeping themselves safe - not take responsibility for the rape or assault - but in responsibility for their own
safety. (I’m talking grown women, not children). That’s all a part of life, is knowing what situations in
which to stay out. It’s not the woman‘s fault for rape or assault, but we need to start teaching young
women to be more aware, and more critical thinking when making judgments of whether to go off with a
man alone, or whether binge drinking in a frat house is a good idea. Also, with this, they also should be
taught not to be afraid to report incidences IMMEDIATELY, and to follow through on prosecutions.
I had a woman tell this to my friend after my friend told the woman what happened to her as a teenager.
***I can talk about personal responsibility any damn time I please. I have photographed and
counseled women who were raped, not coaxed, but violently assulted, and with girls who
assumed because they are women and the guy is supposed to have permission to have sex,
they are safe anywhere.. that's bs. A girl who has been made a pass at and still goes to a boys
or a man's house, or any secluded spot can not say she had no idea what he wanted. The
litigation, victim, not myfalut... his fault... or hers.. or *it can't possibly be ME* crap that floats around
these days is a large part of the problem.***
Nope, surely not about blame. <sarcasm>
Anyone who would speak that way to a victim of sexual assault or rape has no business counseling
other women about rape and sexual assault. I can only imagine how that made her friend feel.
I think it's very important to not make a woman (especially a child since that's what the topic here is) feel
responsible for a crime that someone else committed against them.
You can't justify it. It's not right no matter how good and rational anyone tries to make it sound. There are
so many psychological and emotional factors involved and you can't simply brush them off like they are
nothing.
The kid or the kids who get preyed upon in this manner...
Is it their fault because they could've avoided the situation and they didn't? Does that make them stupid
or worthless or blameworthy?
No.
It doesn't.
Children have a lot to learn. They are still growing. Their minds are still growing. It's not realistic to
expect them to know how to handle each and every bad situation that they are faced with. Only life
experiences can do that. That's why we call the adults the responsible ones. That is why children need
to be protected. That is why we have laws protecting children. That is why we have more laws being
proposed everyday to protect children from sexual predators.
That sort of thinking -- that the woman/girl/victim is equally at fault in some way -- takes the blame off of
the adult (or the perpetrator) -- the teacher in this instance -- or the neighbor in another instance -- or
whichever adult is doing the preying.
We need to protect our children...not blame them for the selfish, damaging, and criminal actions of the
adults who hurt them.
Period.
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 12:18am Aug 16, 2000 EST (#18 of 24)
So, you take no responsibility in your own safety, McDuffy? You’ll go off with any man, regardless of
how well you know him? Well, no wonder....
And I wasn’t talking about the kid in the article. If you’ll read for comprehension, I was responding to a
point Libby was making. Cutting and pasting my response to Libby with that other tripe is fraud....
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 12:22am Aug 16, 2000 EST (#19 of 24)
[McDuffy] - 12:12am Aug 16, 2000 EST (#16 of 18)
While its not excuseable for a man to have sex with an unwilling or unconscious partner, I think its
equally inexcuseable
I'm sure Maat will come in to help your argument.
So you believe that safety is just the other guys concern? You don’t believe that women should take
steps in their own security? The real world is scary Duffy, if you’d actually get out in it, and women must
be proactive in their actions. There are some men that will do terrible things because they are BAD
men, and no amount of righteousness is going to prevent that. Telling an attacker that it is a bad thing
he‘s doing is not going to stop him.
((couldn't find apost 20))
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 12:53am Aug 16, 2000 EST (#21 of 24)
Nope, surely not about blame. <sarcasm> <kneejerk bullshit snipped> We need to protect our
children...not blame them for the selfish & hurtful actions of adults.
TRY TO COMPREHEND THIS DUFF... I WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT CHILDREN. I know its hard, but
excercise those hamsters in your head and ponder the point...
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 12:54am Aug 16, 2000 EST (#22 of 24)
Shoot. I was gonna put all that in one post... but editings time is up....
</twits> [surferchicklet] - 08:21am Aug 16, 2000 EST (#23 of 24)
McDuff... Why are you posting personnal mail..?
You Know Dave has said it is not to be done...... Since you did, and it was a mail I sent to you I will
comment, however.
***I can talk about personal responsibility any damn time I please. I have
photographed and counseled women who were raped, not coaxed, but violently
assulted, and with girls who assumed because they are women and the guy is
supposed to have permission to have sex, they are safe anywhere.. that's bs. A
girl who has been made a pass at and still goes to a boys or a man's house, or
any secluded spot can not say she had no idea what he wanted. The litigation,
victim, not myfalut... his fault... or hers.. or *it can't possibly be ME* crap that
floats around these days is a large part of the problem.***
Ok.. re-read it... and after almost a year I have found nothing in there I disagree with... a typo or two, but
what the hell.
It IS the responsibility of everyone, male and female to take actions to be responsibile for themselves...
I DID talk to women like that... When needed... often when months after their attack, or in some cases
what they believed to be an attack, they were still obsessing and dwelling on it...
Making themselves sick over something that could not be changed, and going right back into the same
kind of situations/relationships that would end up just as badly... or had already shown signs of that...
The **I'm ok, you're ok** Kenneth Smalley or whatever type of counseling is not the kind of co-
dependent, *keep on picking that scab* kind of counseling needed in some cases.
Sometimes a little dose of Reality not ~~**reality**~~ is what is needed.
Sometimes our perceptions of the truth are not the Real truth... and we end up lying to ourselves and
others.
Herb [knitknee] - 08:27am Aug 16, 2000 EST (#24 of 24)
Meanwhile, not too far from Rockville ... Teacher Acquitted of Abuse
I've upped my standards, now up yours. [charolais] - 09:33am Aug 16, 2000 EST (#25 of 56)
That's rich..... Silky Butter posts:
I had a woman tell this to my friend after my friend told the woman what happened to her as a teenager. **I
can talk about personal responsibility any damn time I please. I have photographed and counseled women
who were raped, not coaxed, but violently assulted, and with girls who assumed because they are women
and the guy is supposed to have permission to have sex, they are safe anywhere.. that's bs. A girl who has
been made a pass at and still goes to a boys or a man's house, or any secluded spot can not say she had no
idea what he wanted. The litigation, victim, not myfalut... his fault... or hers.. or *it can't possibly be
ME* crap that floats around these days is a large part of the problem.***
McDuffy reposts it, and makes a snide comment.
And SC knows exactly who wrote the words, originally.
Anyone else see where I am going with this>
Just another risky rocket scheme... [rocket man] - 09:38am Aug 16, 2000 EST (#26 of 56)
(Don't Go Back To) Rockvillehttp://www.singletracks.com/cgi-
bin/rem/FrameIt.pl?Url=http://www.singletracks.com/harborcoat/reckoning/rockville.shtml
Looking at your watch a third time waiting in the station for a bus.
Going to place that's far, so far away and if that's not enough.
Going where nobody says hello, they don't talk to anybody they don't know.
You'll wind up in some factory that's full time filth and nowhere left to go.
Walk home to an empty house, sit around all by yourself.
I know if might sound strange but I believe you'll be coming back before too long.
Don't go back to Rockville.
Don't go back to Rockville.
Don't go back to Rockville and waste another year.
At night I drink myself to sleep and pretend I don't care that you're not here with me.
Cause it's so much easier to handle all my problems if I'm too far out to sea.
But something better happen soon or it's gonna be too late to bring you back.
Don't go back to Rockville.
Don't go back to Rockville.
Don't go back to Rockville and waste another year.
It's not as though I really need you.
If you were here I'd only bleed you.
But everybody else in town only wants to bring you down and that's not how it ought to be.
I know it might sound strange but I believe you'll be coming back before too long.
Don't go back to Rockville.
Don't go back to Rockville.
Don't go back to Rockville and waste another year.
Don't go back to Rockville.
Don't go back to Rockville.
Don't go back to Rockville and waste another year.
-REM
The faith that blinds you, cannot make you whole [cypher] - 09:53am Aug 16, 2000 EST (#27 of
56)
There's a woman here in Oregon named Freed-Elefant, who is currently charged with harassing a
minor for sex on a field trip to Japan.
The School District had the charges dropped originally, but the family is pressing on.
The coeds are back....it's hot.....life is good. [CooterBrown] - 11:58am Aug 16, 2000 EST (#28 of
56)
We need to get these predatory women off of the streets!!
One thing for sure, dubya don't lubya. [lucky085] - 12:01pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#29 of 56)
Where were these women when I was in high school?
[kariannhopes] - 12:09pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#30 of 56)
Thanks guys for getting the topic off McDuffy and back to what the real topic is!
Uh...Lucky you were kidding--weren't ya?
When children trust adults and this behavior occurs, of course they should be charged with rape and
child abuse! It does NOT matter if they are male or female. The sex of the victim does not make a
difference either!
"Woman was God's second mistake." [Vulgus] - 12:15pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#31 of 56)
Ahhh, and here we have more Kirk bashers, bashing Kirk for things he never wrote.
Mmmmm. Stupidity is a disgusting, albeit entertaining, sight to behold.
[McDuffy] - 12:18pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#32 of 56)
When children trust adults and this behavior occurs, of course they should be charged with rape and child
abuse! It does NOT matter if they are male or female. The sex of the victim does not make a difference
either!
Right.
I vote for protecting children. :-)
[McDuffy] - 12:21pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#33 of 56)
What are you going on about now Vulgus? lol
Where did anyone bash him? Just by mentioning his name?
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 12:23pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#34 of 56)
Post and run before taking the dog to the vet:
I don't see where women taking charge of their own safety and being responsible and not seeing blame
in a victim are two mutually exclusive worlds. I think women should be aggressive in nature to be aware
of what situations might put them at risk. But when they find themselves in those situations, and are
attacked or raped, then we must punish the attacker and care for the victim. By saying that women
shouldn't be expected to have some responsibility in safety, is saying that for a woman to be taken
seriously as a victim, that she must be passive and unware. A double edged sword - if you are aware
and proactive in your saftey then you *shouldn't* have been a victim in the first place, but to be
considered a legitimate victim, you must assume the totally helpless role? It puts victims in a no win
situation.
(Again, for McDuffy's sake - I'm not talking about children, or the child in the article...) The subject isn't
McDuffy, Kari - the mini tangent that Char and Surf was pointing out is that McDUffy took the above
premise and stuck children into it, and made it sound like that I (We) were saying that they were
illegitmate victims and they should protect themselves, or some other such nonsense as that.
Warn your kids... don't bogart that joint, boy!! [ringwraith] - 12:24pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#35 of
56)
I can't find a link yet, but a 37 year old female school teacher has been charged with rape, child abuse and
other charges following an alleged sexual relationship with a 12 year old boy.
Geez. Where were these hot 37 year old babes when I was 12?
(hmmm, then again- where are they now?)
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 12:24pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#36 of 56)
I vote for protecting children.
Way to go. I don't think that anyone here is saying not to.
In my mind, I'm gone to Carolina..... [surferchicklet] - 12:35pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#37 of 56)
Kari... I was responding to words of mine that McDuffy quoted as *proof* of... well, tbh I am not entirely
sure WHAT her point was...
That was small peice of a reply to a mail she sent me long ago... she neglected to mention the important
points...
Part of this is From Dr Susan Forward's book, Toxic Parents, part is mine....
You are NOT responsible for what was done to you as a child.
You ARE responsible, as an adult, for taking steps to overcome it.
You ARE responsible for what you do or allow to be done to your (or others')
children
I am not sure what Duff's point was... but mine is that YES, it is of course a bad thing to abuse children. A
38 yr old woman taking advantage of a 12 yr old boy is sick.... a 38 yr old man taking advantage of a 12
yr old girl is sick...
And yes.. a big age difference is bad... BUT if a 16, 17, or 18 (ok, so 18 is legal... but anyway..) yr old is
around someone who is behaving as if they are interested in a sexual relationship, and those advances
are unwanted, and that person doesn't take care to not be in a situation where they are alone with the
person, and indeed agrees to go off alone with them, then the man might consider that their interest was
returned...
Example being my former boss who was overly familiar... If he had asked me to ride with him alone to a
meeting, or go to dinner, I would have turned him down flat... Why would I expose myself to someone
who I found slimy and irritating?
And yes... men should take "No" for an answer, but it isn't a perfect world... and until it is women have
to be able to be proactive about their safety, as Duh said...
Save Roe v Wade [~Libby~] - 12:35pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#38 of 56)
I understand what you're saying, Dusty. (Gads, I forgot I posted on this thread - didn't realize all this was
going on).
I think women can and should be pro-active in protecting themselves, not only against rape, but against
discrimination or any other ways we can and have been victimized. Taking pro-active steps can help
diminish our likelihood of becoming victims. Isn't that what we do, even with children, when we warn
them about the "dangerous stranger", or look both ways before crossing the street?
That in no way means the perpetrator of a crime is blameless or shouldn't be punished to the full extent
of the law. They definitely should.
[McDuffy] - 12:39pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#39 of 56)
That in no way means the perpetrator of a crime is blameless or shouldn't be punished to the full extent of
the law.
And this is the point.
Not to the blame the child or whoever the victim of a sexual crime is.
16 and 17 year olds are children as well
Children, kids, non adults
To tell children they were asking for it (especially when they have been significantly damaged) is
blaming them for what the adult (30, 40 year old) did. I think that's really sick, f*cked up, and deluded.
We don't need to move in that direction. Every child is not out there working the streets by age 16 or 17.
Nor should they be.
Save Roe v Wade [~Libby~] - 12:40pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#40 of 56)
Libby, I didn't say that women committed crimes of this type as often as men. They just don't get charged
like the men, and there isn't the publicity.
I figured women don't get as much publicity, because it doesn't happen as often, Cooter. You're still
making it sound like it happens often, but we just don't hear about it. Seems like it would be an even
bigger story when a woman is the perp, simply because it is more rare. Do you know of stories about
women that were suppressed by the media?
[jackmac] - 12:53pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#41 of 56)
I suspect that it happens much more often than we know but only the ones that are whining about it or
when it is uncovered by pissed-off parents is it reported and charges filed. I suspect the same is true
with male adults and female adolescents as well. I am not convinced, certainly not in every case, that
serious emotional damages are occuring as a result, but I agree that the law should be enforced where
applicable and a problem arises.
Save Roe v Wade [~Libby~] - 12:55pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#42 of 56)
Duffy...I would not blame a child for the actions of an adult. But at the same time, I can look at "some"
situations and see how kids or parents were not careful. I remember a case where a young boyscout
was molested and killed, while out "alone" doing some fundraising. That was something I would never
allow my kids to do, was go door to door without adult supervision. Now that little boy was not
responsible for that heinous crime, but there's no doubt in my mind that the possibility of that happening
could have been reduced to near zero, if parents had exercised a little more caution.
Not all cases are like that, of course, and I'm not saying they are. There are situations where absolutely
nothing the victim did "helped" the perpetrator.
[McDuffy] - 01:01pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#43 of 56)
But at the same time, I can look at "some" situations and see how kids or parents were not careful.
I didn't say that they shouldn't be careful.
But would you tell the boy's family that he was asking to get killed?
Or asking to be molested?
That's the sick, f*cked up, tripe I was talking about in my post earlier today.
(And nowhere did I (or anyone else here) post someone's email address or mention anybody's name. If
I missed that, please point it out.)
But as a person going into social work, who will work with many underprivilged and/or abused women
and kids, I would never say anything to a victim/child to imply that what an adult sex offender did was
their fault.
That is what I was talking about.
No one's saying to go out running naked through Central Park. I never read that or said that on this
thread.
***I can talk about personal responsibility any damn time I please. I have photographed and counseled
women who were raped, not coaxed, but violently assulted, and with girls who assumed because
they are women and the guy is supposed to have permission to have sex, they are safe anywhere..
that's bs. A girl who has been made a pass at and still goes to a boys or a man's house, or any
secluded spot can not say she had no idea what he wanted. The litigation, victim, not myfalut... his
fault... or hers.. or *it can't possibly be ME* crap that floats around these days is a large part of the
problem.***
Anyone can try to justify this all day.
We had the same discussion about violent rape/assault vs. non violent rape/assault just a few weeks
ago on a thread called "RAPE".
I know better.
And hopefully most others do too.
Children need to be protected, not blamed for the sick, selfish, damaging actions of criminals.
[McDuffy] - 01:09pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#44 of 56)
And to think I've seen so many come down on Maat's arguments.
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 01:10pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#45 of 56)
I think a 17 year old has to be given more credit than a child - a 17 year old does have the awareness to
understand a possible dangerous situation, or even a compromising situation.
(And nowhere did I (or anyone else here) post someone's email address or mention anybody's
name.)
I think if someone posted one of YOUR private emails, you be livid and email every TIME employee
about the injustice that was done to you....
And to think I've seen so many come down on Maat's arguments.
So, now, people who don't agree with your point of view are automatically lumped in with Maat? You
obviously don't see enough of the greys in debates to distinguish between arguments. *They* all have
to be wrong... *They* all have to be Maat's POV...
Save Roe v Wade [~Libby~] - 01:18pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#47 of 56)
But would you tell the boy he was asking to get killed?
Or asking to be molested?
What I did tell my children was that there are some really sick puppies out there and I don't want you
going door to door alone.
We can't tell the boy, who is dead, anything. And I don't blame this dead boy for what happened to him,
but I do believe the parents were negligent (or just too trusting). I don't think anyone here is saying
blame the victims. Just know that sometimes there are things you can do to reduce the likelihood of
being victimized. That's all.
Please, Call Me KT! [PureWine] - 01:19pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#48 of 56)
By all means, yes, women should protect themselves. I'm having a hard time figuring out how that fits
into a discussion about rape and sexual assualt/abuse other than she didn't do a very good job at it.
If you want to talk about preventative measures, then we should discuss it. But once the attack happens,
that conversation should end and attention placed on the crime.
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 01:20pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#49 of 56)
I'm having a hard time figuring out how that fits into a discussion about rape and sexual
assualt/abuse other than she didn't do a very good job at it.
I was responding to a Libby post, then McDuffy took it and posted it in another post about people
blaming children...
[McDuffy] - 01:21pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#50 of 56)
I don't think anyone here is saying blame the victims.
We are reading different things then.
[McDuffy] - 01:22pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#51 of 56)
This is the only post Libby made on this thread before I responded to anything.
Anyone can go back and read.
~Libby~ 8/15/00 6:43pm
[McDuffy] - 01:24pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#52 of 56)
If you want to talk about preventative measures, then we should discuss it. But once the attack happens,
that conversation should end and attention placed on the crime.
Right.. unless there's some other kind of motive involved. Maybe some pleasure derived from making
victims feel guilt.
Well, it's really the same argument that Maat has been making all along. Madison Ave. and what not.
He can have his own opinions. He has every right to express them. And I've said that.
But when folks came down on him for saying the same things that they are saying now...
Then you have to wonder what's up.
He gets hell for his ideas. Flamed out of the water.
Something's not right there...
I'll have to come back to this later.
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 01:26pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#53 of 56)
OPPSY. my bad... I was responding to what Mcduffy Silkybutter said...
There you go Duffy, trying to pigeonhole every response that seemingly disagrees with you in a cloak of
Maat-ness...
In my mind, I'm gone to Carolina..... [surferchicklet] - 01:29pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#54 of 58)
How this fits in PW, is MCDuffy wants to start another *Who's the Biggest Bitch On PF?* thread...
You see, some people have a problem with the truth...
Once they hear it and some part of them realizes it, unlike and adult who can absorb it, learn and grow,
they have to lash out at the person how points it out to them in an effort to deny it.
But as a person going into social work, who will work with many underprivilged and/or abused women and
kids, I would never say anything to a victim/child to imply that what an adult sex offender did was their
fault.
Where did I?
I simply said that if a person is 16 or 17, able to drive, and have a job, and are in that limbo between
adolecent and adult they have shown at least some indications of maturity...
If that person or anyone else, was being sexually harrassed and then accepted an invitation to go off
alone with the person, that is not the most intelligent move they might have made.
Of course the man should accept *NO* for an answer if it is said, but in complete honesty, if a man is
making sexual remarks, suggestions, advances, and then asks the person they are hitting on to go
somewhere it is understandable why he might think she found him attractive and all that.
SO... THAT said... Why would a woman of any age put her self in that position?
I've upped my standards, now up yours. [charolais] - 01:30pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#55 of 58)
I think that plenty of 15, 16, and 17 year old kids nowadays are highly informed in sex education- shoot
they are informing grade school aged children what to "watch out" for.
Children in their teens are riding high on hormones, their interests are up and they are highly
susceptible to engaging in sex with adults. This is not to say that we should not protect them, but how
many kids out there do see that are sexually active at the ages of 14 and up?
To think they are not is a denial- I have seen teenage girls literally pushing themselves onto adult men,
and vice versa. What high school boy doesn't have fantasies about a teacher?
Kids are reaching puberty at much younger ages now, the physical feelings are there and they are
becoming sexually active at very young ages. Of course it is wrong for an adult, or a person over the
age of 18 to give in or take advantage of a situation.
The only way you are really going to protect a child is to be with them for 24 hrs a day- impossible.
Teaching them self-respect, empowerment and the difference between what is right and what is wrong
is about all one can do.
Sex and morality education starts in the home. Children who grow up with a good sense of self worth
are less likely to become victimized...\cgi-bin/webx?53@63.YYz0aU2xYVg^41@.eec16c3/54..\cgi-
bin/webx?53@63.YYz0aU2xYVg^41@.eec16c3/54..\cgi-bin/webx?54@63.YYz0aU2xYVg^41@.eec16c3/54..\cgi-
bin/webx?54@63.YYz0aU2xYVg^41@.eec16c3/54
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 01:31pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#56 of 58)
It's quite popular to blame the victim and make them feel awful because the girl didn't take
*proper* steps to avoid whatever happened. I think that's very wrong. That adds to the
trauma...
And, YES, I do believe that a seventeen year old has the capacity to judge whether to go into a
dangerous situtation...
The only way you are really going to protect a child is to be with them for 24 hrs a day-
impossible. Teaching them self-respect, empowerment and the difference between what is
right and what is wrong is about all one can do.
And I simply said that if a person is 16 or 17, able to drive, and have a job, and are in that limbo
between adolecent and adult they have shown at least some indications of maturity...
BRAVO. I couldn't have said it better myself....
In my mind, I'm gone to Carolina..... [surferchicklet] - 01:36pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#57 of 58)
raped, not coaxed, but violently assulted
What about this needs to be *defended?*
I have picked up women who have lost an eye when their attacker punched them in the side of the
head.
Women who have had stitches from objects being inserted in places they should not go.
Bruises and cuts and broken bones you wouldn't believe... I can look at a bruise and tell you how hard
the victim was struck, at what angle and how long ago within a small time frame...
Women who were in their homes, cars, and yes with their S/O who was the one who raped them...
I have also spoken to women who were coerced not forced... and for the most part those women had to
think about it for a day or two before they realized they had been raped... And it opened their eyes... A
husband who threatens his wife with being thrown out of the house if she doesn't perform is a rapist.
If thay woman goes back into the house knowing he is interested in her just as a sex object she is
stupid.
A girl who has been made a pass at and still goes to a boys or a man's house, or any secluded spot can not
say she had no idea what he wanted.
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 01:36pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#58 of 59)
SO... THAT said... Why would a woman of any age put her self in that position?
Probably because she doesn't have the maturity or knowledge that comes from either proper guidance
from parents or is in denial herself of what a dangerous situation she places herself in.
Please, Call Me KT! [PureWine] - 01:36pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#59 of 59)
I was responding to a Libby post, then McDuffy took it and posted it in another post about people blaming
children...
I wasn't addressing you directly. I have been your following posts and understand (and partially agree)
with them.
There seems to be a lot of confusing the two seperate issues of protecting oneself and taking
responsibility of the crime. (Not to single you out.)
TBH, I'm reading surferchic's post as blaming the victim. Maybe she would like to clarify a little more.. .
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 01:39pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#60 of 60)
Sorry, KT. My bad again.
[Johnnyba] - 01:52pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#61 of 62)
Libby
"I don't think as many women are guilty of those kinds of crimes"
do you remember all those Mary Kay LeTournou threads? Standard wisdom seemed to be that it just
doesn't matter as much when its a boy as it does when its a girl. They notion seems to be that boys can
handle it better. Reality is that they just handle it differently.
But as to wheather or not women do that kind of thing less it would seem obvious that they do. Except
that they are just not as outwordly predetorial. Sexual abuse perpetrated on boys by women is thought
to be way underroported because of the above conventional wisdom.
So I'm really not sure that it less. It might just be different.
In my mind, I'm gone to Carolina..... [surferchicklet] - 01:57pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#62 of 62)
I edited kt, sorry...
I am not saying *poor rapist*
Believe me, I know it happens, date rape is just as much rape as others...
But if a girl or woman is in a position where she is not comfortable with someone when there is a whole
room full of people why in God's name go off alone with them??
If you trust someone and they take advantage of that trust it is one thing, but if you don't trust them and
they still take advantage then at least learn to be more careful in the future...
[Johnnyba] - 02:00pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#63 of 65)
KT I don't think that is blaming the victim to point out that there a situations that a grown women should
know to avoid. Most women know these situations by the time they are a teenager. But that does not
mean that they are responsible for what the attacker does.
In my mind, I'm gone to Carolina..... [surferchicklet] - 02:03pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#64 of 65)
And before you guys get your jocks all in a twist, yes, there are also cases where a woman or girl has
only decided it was rape (or in the case of one 17 yr old friend and his 17 yr old girlfriend/oops..not-
long-after-that-wife) or statutory rape when the EPT comes up positive...
That one bit... In NC a guy is legal at 17, a girl at 18... she wanted to get married, he didn't... by the time
he found out she *wasn't pregnant* she was... their first kid was born 10 months after the wedding... at
which she was supposed to be 3 months pregnant. And no... I am not taking his word for it.
She told me... It was intentional...
They're divorced now.
In my mind, I'm gone to Carolina..... [surferchicklet] - 02:13pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#65 of 65)
So... Clearer, KT?
No... I do not tell anyone it is their fault... never have never will...
But... I am also not a hand wringing, *Oh, poor you, it's horrible just horrible, of course there was nothing
you could have done to prevent it* kind of person. If there was something that could have been done to
prevent it I will point that out. Especially if some time has passed and that person has had lots of
counseling, yet still seems to be clinging to the *Victim* label like a badge of honor...
Accept a little responsibility, learn from it, grow from it and above all try not to let the events of one night
control your actions for the rest of your life.
Sometimes it takes a glass of cold water in the face to wake people up... and sometimes it isn't easy and
it may be painful... but learn from it is the main thing... and do not again put yourself in the same
situation, and stop blaming others for your actions.
Star the Wonder Beagle for President! [MsRobbie] - 02:57pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#66 of 66)
I'm not entirely sure what all the hoo-haw is about here. The thread parent began by talking about a case of an adult
abusing a child. The conversation has drifted and expanded into adults abusing adults, but it seems to me everyone
has approximately the same point to make: abuse is horrible, but some common sense steps can be taken to lessen
the likelihood of occurring.
Schools and parents now teach young children about "bad touching," telling children to report it immediately. Yet
children often can be cowed by a powerful adult and prevented from telling what they probably have been taught
they should. Similarly, grown women who may think they have no choices can be cowed into accepting actions that
make them uncomfortable. It's easy to say "Avoid the situation," but women have been fending off advances in the
workplace for years, trying to deal with such advances themselves, quietly, and not putting their jobs at risk.
Sometimes they're successful, sometimes they're not.
Returning to the point of the thread, and to Johnnyba's post above, I don't know how unreported or under-reported
advances by adult women to young boys may be. It is certainly the case that women lack the equipment (wasn't that
delicately put?) to force sex upon an unwilling male, which is not true when it's a man wanting to force sex upon an
unwilling female. Further, I really do believe the male sex drive is stronger than the female sex drive, so males are
probably far more likely to be perpetrators than females. That said, however, it still seems highly probable that there
are adult women initiating sex with young males in greater numbers than generally reported.
When we've discussed Mary Kay LeTourneau around here previously, there have always been a number of posts,
chiefly from men, who give it a "nudge nudge, wink wink" response, as if it's a feather in a boy's cap to have bagged
his teacher. I suppose that attitude is left over from the idea that all males at and past the age of puberty want sex all
the time, and it's a notch on his belt to get some. I'm really disgusted by this reaction, as it seems clear to me (as it
seems to the thread parent) that this kind of abuse is every bit as outrageous as we would find it if the genders were
reversed.
"Truth is the highest thing that man may keep." [Shroom] - 03:05pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#67 of
70)
MsRobbie,
It is certainly the case that women lack the equipment (wasn't that delicately put?) to force sex upon an
unwilling male, which is not true when it's a man wanting to force sex upon an unwilling female
Just what "Equipment" is needed to rape that women don't have?
I am not sure if the following is just an urban legend or not, I heard about it 10 years or so ago. A woman
who had been raped and her mother kidnapped the man who had raped her the day he was released
from prison. For a week they had kept him locked up and physically assualted him a couple of hundred
of times over that week.
The DA, who pressed charges against the women, did call it rape, even though the women did not use
any part of their bodies to penetrate his body.
If you believe that rape or sexual assualt can only be done with a penis, the Legal community disagrees
with you.
Save Roe v Wade [~Libby~] - 03:12pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#68 of 70)
do you remember all those Mary Kay LeTournou threads? Standard wisdom seemed to be that it just doesn't
matter as much when its a boy as it does when its a girl. They notion seems to be that boys can handle it
better. Reality is that they just handle it differently.
Yes, I understand. I was never one to say "boys could handle it better". I don't even think that's probably
true. A grown woman preying on young boys is just as much of a predator as an grown man preying on
young girls. It has been my assumption, as I mentioned earlier, that women are not as often predators. I
think Robbie made some good points. But you made a good point in that there are different kinds of (or
different styles) of predatory behavior. What I think women probably engage in less, is the physically
violent kind of predatory behavior. That seems to be very rare.
Save Roe v Wade [~Libby~] - 03:15pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#69 of 70)
Just as I claim women are not typically as violent, Shroom, you come up with an example.
You're right about the equipment part, although I'll have to admit, like Robbie, I didn't really think about
that. Even men don't always use their "equipment" to sexually assault. As an example, the NYPD cops
who assaulted Abner Louima (I would consider that sexual assault).
"Truth is the highest thing that man may keep." [Shroom] - 03:25pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#70 of
70)
Libby,
As an example, the NYPD cops who assaulted Abner Louima (I would consider that sexual assault).
Exactly.
As far as women not being as violent as men, I have to disagree with that. It is just more acceptable for
women to be violent, especially towards men.
As an example, Watching a T.V. show. You see a woman cheating on her husband. He catches her.
Angered, he slaps her. Everyone boos him for hitting a woman.
Different show, a man is cheating on his wife. She catches him. She slaps him. Everyone Cheers.
Then there is always the scene where a woman hits, kicks, knees a man in the groin. Depending on the
show, it is either done as comic relief, or it is cheered.
[McDuffy] - 04:01pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#71 of 71)
I'm reading surferchic's post as blaming the victim. Maybe she would like to clarify a little more.. .
I've read all of the posts from the beginning.
All of the posts are still here to read. I read the same thing.
I think that plenty of 15, 16, and 17 year old kids nowadays are highly informed in sex education- shoot
they are informing grade school aged children what to "watch out" for.
Children in their teens are riding high on hormones, their interests are up and they are highly susceptible to
engaging in sex with adults. This is not to say that we should not protect them, but how many kids out
there do see that are sexually active at the ages of 14 and up?
To think they are not is a denial- I have seen teenage girls literally pushing themselves onto
adult men, and vice versa.
It's ok for adult men to push themselves on teenage girls? Are all teenage girls pushing themselves onto adult men?
ok gotcha
surferchicklet 8/16/00 1:36pm
Well, you and Maat have a right to that argument. I hope the couple of folks here back him up next time instead of
flaming him for having the same ideas that they have. I have always supported him being able to express his ideas
no matter how weird and warped.
I'll note that for next time the same folks start flaming him about these topics.
So I've read...
Justification for the adult to rape or assault. Excuses for the adult to rape or assault
good
just what society needs
As Kt said, there are 2 different issues 1) protecting yourself from danger 2) blaming the victim and putting down
the victim for something that's already happened... (and getting much pleasure out of it) while taking much of the
responsibility off of the responsible party
2 - separate - issues
No one *causes* someone to rape them or sexually assault them. And I've heard several others on past threads try to
explain this to people.
No one *causes* someone to rape them or sexually assault them.
No one *causes* someone to rape them or sexually assault them.
Most women know these situations by the time they are a teenager.
Well the ones who have never had any sort of sexual experiences are stupid right? They should be out working the
streets at a very young age.
Bullshit.
If Mary and Jane are out running around with this guy and the other, it doesn't mean that every other girl is having
the same experiences.
Laws are there to protect those children who are vulnerable and who do get preyed up... who do get lured over the
internet even at age 16, who do get date raped, who do end up situations that are not always the safest.
Yet children often can be cowed by a powerful adult and prevented from telling what they probably have
been taught they should.
This is another good point.
NO ONE said to put yourself in a dangerous situation. I read back and didn't find where anyone had said that. If you
find it, point it out for me. But adults are good manipulators. They have the experience and they have the power to
outsmart children/teenagers. And they do it everyday.
But the kind of bullshit I'm hearing (obviously centered around the assault when I was a 17 year old with all of these
people trying to put me down) is blaming the victim. Making the victim feel guilty. Putting down the victim. And
that is wrong. That is what I have been trying to say.
And yes I read all of the posts. I'm not stupid. I can recognize the *blaming the victim* bullshit whenever I see it.
I will never do that to anyone.
I am so much stronger now and no one can convince me that what the 30 year old man did to me when I was a
minor was my fault.
Never again.
Star the Wonder Beagle for President! [MsRobbie] - 04:08pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#72 of 79)
Shroom: If you believe that rape or sexual assualt can only be done with a penis, the Legal community
disagrees with you.
Good point, Shroom, and one I frankly wasn't thinking about when I wrote my bit.
Also good points about the different reactions to violence in TV shows. We need to get to the point of
finding all violence unacceptable, no matter who is on the giving and receiving ends of it.
Star the Wonder Beagle for President! [MsRobbie] - 04:11pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#73 of 79)
McDuffy: But adults are good manipulators. They have the experience and they have the power to
outsmart children/teenagers. And they do it everyday.
That's the point I was trying to make, too. Thanks for the help.
[FAHayek] - 04:15pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#74 of 79)
I have a problem with the new term "children/teenagers." Children are children and teenagers are
teenagers. Seventeen year olds who die participating in gang violence are not "children killed by guns"
and seventeen year olds who maintain voluntary sexual relationships with 30 year olds are not victims.
Twelve? That's a child for both purposes.
Regardless of age or any other factor, initiation of force is wrong - within and outside the discussion of
rape.
[Yippie-Ki-Yay] - 04:16pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#75 of 79)
Sentence the woman to marriage.
A sure fire guarantee that any sort of sexual relationship will never happen.
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 04:27pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#76 of 79)
That’s just total bullshit McDuffy. Your telling me that I teenager should be treated as a small child
should. By god, I would hope that a 17 year old would have more sense than a 8 year old. And nobody
here is blaming the victim, you refuse to see the argument and points being made here, so you do your
kneejerk cut and paste and compare everybody to Maat.
Warning! Scan shows Dave in area! Look innocent. [_maggie_] - 04:31pm Aug 16, 2000 EST
(#77 of 78)
But the kind of bullshit I'm hearing (obviously centered around the assault when I was a 17 year old with
all of these people trying to put me down) is blaming the victim. Making the victim feel guilty. Putting
down the victim. And that is wrong. That is what I have been trying to say.
Seems to me that you and your alter ego, Silky Butter, brought up YOUR situation when you posted an
excerpt from SC's email to you when you were discussing the incident with her a year ago.
As FAHayak said above, a 17-year-old woman who enters into a voluntary sexual relationship with a
30-year-old man is not a victim unless she was forcibly raped.
I've upped my standards, now up yours. [charolais] - 04:34pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#78 of 78)
It's ok for adult men to push themselves on teenage girls? Are all teenage girls pushing themselves onto
adult men?
Is that how you interpret my post, McD?
Nowhere in that post did I condone adults pushing themselves off on minors. And nowhere did I say
ALL teenage girls push themselves onto men. Where do you read that?
I simply stated a known fact of life, McD- it is happening everyday out there in the real world. You have
teenagers out there with hormones ablazing and to put it bluntly, they are horny. They are not MATURE
enough to know what they might be getting themselves into, and when they do, it normally spells
trouble. Not all, some have more self-control and more self-worth.
I haven't seen anywhere in this thread where the "victim" is being blamed.
You post amazing stuff, girl. You openly flirt, post "come-ons" and all kinds of stuff with sexual innuendo-
and the best part is you have no idea of who the hell you are really posting to.
No doubt something occurred in your teenage years, and no one is saying it is your fault. But you don't
show much maturity when you come in here and post your flirtations, etc. and then turn around and start
screaming about "victims". And why do you take this all so personally? No one is directing this at you.
Has it ever occurred to you that you could be setting yourself up? To be a victim? Again? You should
take a look at that sometime
Star the Wonder Beagle for President! [MsRobbie] - 04:35pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#79 of 80)
maggie: As FAHayak said above, a 17-year-old woman who enters into a voluntary sexual relationship
with a 30-year-old man is not a victim unless she was forcibly raped.
Well, I'm not all the way there, yet. Maybe 17-year-olds are a lot more sophisticated now than I was at
that age, but it seems to me a man could "groom" a 17-year-old girl over time and she might not know
what was happening to her until it was too late. When I was 16 I had a major crush on a man whose
office was close to my father's office, and whom I saw fairly regularly when I worked for my dad during
summers. It probably wouldn't have taken much...
Warning! Scan shows Dave in area! Look innocent. [_maggie_] - 04:43pm Aug 16, 2000 EST
(#80 of 80)
Maybe 17-year-olds are a lot more sophisticated now than I was at that age, but it seems to me a man
could "groom" a 17-year-old girl over time and she might not know what was happening to her until it
was too late.
Well, they are more sophisticated, Robbiegirl, but, honestly, you don't have to be Einstein to figure out if
someone's trying to get in your pants.
Star the Wonder Beagle for President! [MsRobbie] - 04:47pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#81 of 81)
You're probably right about sophistication levels, Maggiegirl, when I consider the fact that I was 17 years old 40
years ago. *sigh*
But I'm sitting here recalling my schoolgirl-ish fantasies about the man. They involved hugging and kissing and
being petted and fussed over. It really didn't dawn on me then where things would likely go from that point.
I've upped my standards, now up yours. [charolais] - 04:58pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#82 of 82)
I think the kids today are much more sophisticated than 40 years ago.
They have grown up in a society that's AIDS aware, sex is literally thrown at them everywhere they look, from
magazines to television, and now the internet- these kids know a heck of alot more.
My point is that teenagers are full of the hormones that cause these fantasies, and are nowhere mature enough to
handle the consequences. Once in a while, you might see a young teenager take up with someone (an adult) who is
meant for them- I've seen relationships like that last, as a norm- no.
The emotional maturity levels are so different, that the only thing that is the attraction is sex- and we all know,
relationships built on sex do not last.
Teenagers are incapable of seeing that far. Hell, most teenagers have no sense of mortality. I know I sure didn't at
17. I figured I would live forever. Gee, still here, too. WOW.
Warning! Scan shows Dave in area! Look innocent. [_maggie_] - 04:59pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#83 of 83)
But I'm sitting here recalling my schoolgirl-ish fantasies about the man. They involved hugging and kissing and
being petted and fussed over. It really didn't dawn on me then where things would likely go from that point.
School girl fantansies and inexperience aside, IMO it's inaccurate to label a voluntary ongoing sexual or sexually-
toned relationship between a 17-year-old young woman and an older man as harrassment or assault unless, of
course, she, at some point, said stop and he didn't. Then it becomes a different situation. But to continue with the
situation and then, several months or years down the road, decide that you're pissed off about it, is ridiculous and
again, IMO, undermines and trivializes the experiences of those people who actually ARE assaulted or harrassed.
[McDuffy] - 05:01pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#84 of 84)
Get off of it geez.
MsRobbie read the 6 page letter I sent to the sergeant.
Get off it. I didn't have some ongoing relationship with anyone. I've never had a boyfriend up to this day.
If you don't like me, that's a separate thing.
That's already been established.
Blaming the victim bullshit has to stop.
Next!
Please, Call Me KT! [PureWine] - 05:03pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#85 of 85)
surferchic,
Yes, it is clearer now. Thank you.
I can see what you're saying now but I'm not sure if I agree with you. Let me think about it for awhile and get some
rest (I'm very tired) and I'll get back to ya.
Warning! Scan shows Dave in area! Look innocent. [_maggie_] - 05:53pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#86 of 86)
Blaming the victim bullshit has to stop.
No one is "blaming the victims", McDuffy.
I simply don't believe that you WERE a victim. I believe you involved yourself with someone you had no business
being involved with and he involved himself with someone he had no business being involved with.
You were young and inexperienced and he was stupid, arrogant and horny. Unless he forced you to commit a sexual
act against your will, made you do something that you didn't want to do, threatened you in some way, etc., it was an
unfortunate life experience but not harrassment or assault.
[Johnnyba] - 05:58pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#87 of 87)
Ms Robbie
"It is certainly the case that women lack the equipment"
When we are talking about statutory rape the equipment is pretty much irrelevant as its as often as not "consensual".
And besides, any guy can tell you that during puberty, and often far beyond, guys get boners whether they like it or
not and often at pretty uncomfortable times. An older women could very easily force herself on an unwilling young
boy because the kids probably going to respond to stimulation whether he likes it or not and will be thoroughly
confused by the experience particularly if he feels uncomfortable and perhaps even repulsed at the same time as
aroused.
I’m not sure of under or over reporting either. But I do know that women tend toward different kinds of abuse. I
think in particular of Pam Smart and her teenage boys. A similar situation happened with boys at the school I work
at last year. A woman was seducing them and getting them to go out and burglarize houses for her. She had a fairly
large gang of adolescent and teenage boys before they caught her.
From what I have seen women are much more inclined to that kind of manipulative abuse.
We do know for sure that male sexual abuse by women is underreported. Exactly how much is impossible to say. As
equality between the sexes becomes more and more pronounced I suspect that it will become clearer though.
[McDuffy] - 06:36pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#88 of 90)
Re: Topic
This was one of the articles I had saved... from all of the research that I've done over the past year.
I think it's a great article, and I have read a lot of what Dr. Faulkner has to say.
The entire article is excellent. I tried to post the main points.. which was hard to do because she made
an excellent point in almost every paragraph.
Adult-Child Sex: Is It Abuse or Misuse?
by Nancy Faulkner, Ph.D
In his article "In an Age of Consent, Defining Abuse by Adults," Bruni reviews two highly publicized
cases of adult-child sex cases. Bruni cites these cases as examples that a child might be responsible for
sex with an adult, and as justification for replacing the term "sexual abuse."
One example by Bruni is the highly publicized case in which a teenage boy, Sam Manzi, was reportedly
victimized by an adult who lured him through the Internet. Subsequently, young Manzi abused and
murdered a younger neighbor.
The other case Bruni used as an example in his article was a 13-year-old male student who was
reportedly sexually abused by his 35-year-old female teacher. The teacher pleaded guilty to sexual
abuse; but the young student defended her in court when he said he initiated the adult-child sex. Is the
teacher blameless because her student assumed responsibility for feelings he had for his teacher?
If we, as mental health and juvenile justice professionals, diminish the term "abuse" and do not hold
adults accountable, don't we send out the message to children that they are responsible? If we even
casually suggest that a child is responsible for adult-child sex because of some "initiated" inappropriate
behavior, are we not alleviating adults of the responsibility to be the guardians who guide children
toward healthy development?...
Abuse survivors tell us that one of the problems that lingers into adulthood and that keeps the secret
intact for years, is the child's feeling that they were somehow to blame, and as a result, they are "dirty" or
"soiled." Sex offenders are smart. They know about the "pleasure guilt" and may even emphasize it to
keep the sordid secret, -- "If you tell anyone about this, they'll think you're bad."
Sex offenders very cunningly weave the web of abuse and secrecy. The snare is cast ever so slowly
under the guise of a "loving" relationship. By the time many children realize something is wrong, the
violation has begun, and the stench of the self-deprecating feelings has already emerged into their
terrified reality.
By suggesting that innocent children not place the blame squarely where it belongs, -- on the adult, --
are we turning the clock back to the days of telling rape victims that they "asked for it"? If we don't place
the responsibility where it belongs -- on the adults -- aren't we confirming what child victims are already
saying to themselves, -- "It must be my fault." If we dismiss "abuse" as "misuse", and tell children that
they were simply a part of misguided love, aren't we sending more confusing messages? Will we then
drive the secrets further into the night?
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 06:48pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#89 of 90)
If you don't like me, that's a separate thing. That's already been established.
Blaming the victim bullshit has to stop.
So now instead of making it a Maat thing, your going to make it a personal thing. When are you going to
get that it has nothing to do with blaming the victim. As far as talking about you, since you posted a
personal email, should we then discuss the subject that prompted that personal email? I do believe that
it was a specific situation Surf was trying to expound on, and you by taking it out of context and posting
it, put her in a false light - is this what your going to use to bolster your "You all are blaming the victim"
tirade. Because if that is what is has come down to, I can think of a situation that would illustrate my "A
17 year old SHOULD know a suspicious situation when she is involved with one..."
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 06:53pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#90 of 90)
I think the whole point is to avoid the situation that you have describe in #88. Making responsibility of
behavior, of safety, does not in any way blame the victim. It makes more sense to prevent such
situations....
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 07:01pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#91 of 92)
By suggesting that innocent children not place the blame squarely where it belongs, -- on the
adult, -- are we turning the clock back to the days of telling rape victims that they "asked for
it"? If we don't place the responsibility where it belongs -- on the adults -- aren't we confirming
what child victims are already saying to themselves, -- "It must be my fault." If we dismiss
"abuse" as "misuse", and tell children that they were simply a part of misguided love, aren't we
sending more confusing messages? Will we then drive the secrets further into the night?
I've read most all the posts and I do not see any one doing anything like this. But your dramatic reading
there, gets me right here ***patting heart area***
When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty [wardaddy] - 07:03pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#92 of
96)
In this case, the chips are down.
HEY!! No fighting in the war room! [DaveGin] - 07:08pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#93 of 96)
I missed the part where innocent children were given suggestions not to put the blame for sexual
assaults on adults.
When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty [wardaddy] - 07:09pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#94 of
96)
Duffy found it, but like so much else that she sees, she only sees when the voices tell her to.
[McDuffy] - 07:10pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#95 of 96)
McDuffy 8/16/00 6:36pm
Adult-Child Sex: Is It Abuse or Misuse?
by Nancy Faulkner, Ph.D
by Nancy Faulkner, Ph.D
by Nancy Faulkner, Ph.D
Not McDuffy
And I'd read the article in it's entirety because it has a lot to do with this topic.
*The other case Bruni used as an example in his article was a 13-year-old male student who was
reportedly sexually abused by his 35-year-old female teacher. The teacher pleaded guilty to sexual
abuse; but the young student defended her in court when he said he initiated the adult-child sex.
Is the teacher blameless because her student assumed responsibility for feelings he had for his
teacher? Taking a closer look at the student and teacher "relationship," are there any notable
differences between a 13-year-old and a 35-year-old?*
[N. Tufnel] - 07:18pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#96 of 96)
Q: How will that young feller ever recover from such a traumatic experience?
A: A good night's sleep.
When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty [wardaddy] - 07:28pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#97 of
99)
Psuedos to the left!
Psuedos to the right!
My God, it was such a horrible sight!
[N. Tufnel] - 07:29pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#98 of 99)
huh?
When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty [wardaddy] - 07:30pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#99 of
99)
Private joke, not directed at you.
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 08:09pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#99 of 109)
And I'd read the article in it's entirety because it has a lot to do with this topic.
Then why are you plummeting everybody over the head, trying get them to say they blame children for
their abuse? Nobody here has said that, and you seem to have a sensitive spot when we try and make
the point that taking active responsibility in one’s own saftey is essential in prevention of such abhorant
events. You don’t agree that women should be more aware and more proactive when it comes to
judgment matters? What, do you think its better to punish or litigate afterwards that to try and prevent it
beforehand?
When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty [wardaddy] - 08:15pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#100 of
109)
Duh
Post #97
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 08:40pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#101 of 109)
LOL
"There is light at the end of the tunnel...the trick is to figure out in time whether or not it is a
train..." [mrs.spagz] - 09:25pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#102 of 109)
RAY- ... #97... LOLOL
Hey, DUHSTER; still no final bids on Cooter's Nekkid picture... VITO upped the stakes over on RR...
Hey, will COOT get an ego trip out of all this action on only HALF his picture?????? What a guy!
In my mind, I'm gone to Carolina..... [surferchicklet] - 10:00pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#103 of 109)
I have the top half already Mrs S..*S*
I agree that a 35 yr old woman who has sex with a 13 yr old is taking advantage...
Shoot, John... some grown men have trouble controling their reactions to certain...... stimuli... ?
"Can't we all just get a bong?" [SherrieG] - 10:17pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#104 of 109)
If somebody runs around screaming "screw me, screw me," at every man who comes within earshot,
she shouldn't be surprised when people decide a) she is easy and/or b) she is a boneheaded moron.
Just my take.
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 10:20pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#105 of 109)
MrsS. I think the last bid was $2.25? $2.50? Folks, you can’t get much better art than this... come on...
(mama needs a G4 cube) Anybody for $50 or $75???
[lara croft] - 11:02pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#106 of 109)
Well, I must say, I've read this thread and I was pleasantly surprised at the level of civility exhibited here.
I saw point by point made in a calm, rational manner and for the most part, no name calling, no
comparisons to hedious people and no calling into question, a poster's lineage.
What I did NOT see was one single post blaming the victim, despite insistence that it had happened.
I saw reasonable points made that women should take steps to protect themselves if they don't wish to
be a victim.
I saw reasonable points made that if some guy is making unwanted advances, the very very very last
thing that a woman should do, is go to a private place, alone with this guy.
I saw a reasonable point made that women have a say in their lives, they are not helpless victims of
every man who comes along, they CAN fight back by being aware of their surroundings and refusing to
place themselves in situations of danger.
I did NOT see anyone say this was the case in EVERY situation nor that the attacker should be
excused, ever.
I saw that point twisted to say that those making that particular argument were somehow telling children
they were to blame for any assault.
I saw a very pursuasive argument made that given the predatory nature of some in society today,
women should do all they can to prevent attack.
I did NOT see a post or poster who suggested that a rapist or someone who assaults a woman (or child)
should go free.
But I did see an attempt to make any statement suggesting women had power over their own destiny,
appear as if the poster was saying the criminals should be excused.
Let's be clear here, those who sexually assault anyone, women, children, or men, should be punished
to the fullest extent of the law. BUT - those who hang out, constantly placing themselves in danger,
ready and willing to be a victim, DO have some responsibility.
AND I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT CHILDREN.
sure the one you need [ex-glencarr] - 11:09pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#107 of 109)
Who constantly places themselves in danger? Maybe hookers but most people are pretty careful about
their personal safety.
The coeds are back....it's hot.....life is good. [CooterBrown] - 11:15pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#108 of
109)
I have finally caught up on my thread. It seems that it got a little action today, and by my reading, there
are some misconceptions.
First of all, I haven't seen anyone blame the victim or advocate that. Let's drop that right now.
Second, Libby and I seem to be having problems communicating. I haven't said that women are
committing as many of these crimes as men. I think I even said I suspect they are far lower in number.
What I HAVE said is that up until this point in our history the women have not been treated or charged
the same as the men who commit the same acts. I suspect this type act is undereported, but I'm not
going to speculate as to how much.
One more thing. I can assure you that a woman can maneuver things so that she can have sex with a
male past puberty whether he really wants to or not. At that age, it will work whether he wants it to or not.
sure the one you need [ex-glencarr] - 11:18pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#109 of 109)
Teachers do seem to be doing this more now than in the past. Unless we're just hearing more about it
these days.
Save Roe v Wade [~Libby~] - 11:29pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#110 of 111)
What I HAVE said is that up until this point in our history the women have not been treated or charged the
same as the men who commit the same acts. I suspect this type act is undereported, but I'm not going to
speculate as to how much.
Thanks for clarifying your point further, Cooter.
I was just trying to understand the title of your thread. I wasn't sure what you meant by it.
HEY!! No fighting in the war room! [DaveGin] - 11:39pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#111 of 111)
That's partly it, Glencar.
It wasn't all that long ago that any male reporting a rape by a woman would have been laughed out of
the station.
And parents didn't - or wouldn't report sexual predators of their children because of the attention it would
bring the family. Hell, many of those predators were family. So, they'd keep it quiet.
For the kids, they told themselves.
sure the one you need [ex-glencarr] - 12:02am Aug 17, 2000 EST (#112 of 112)
Good points, Dave.
[lara croft] - 12:59am Aug 17, 2000 EST (#113 of 115)
sure the one you need [ex-glencarr] - 11:09pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#107 of 112) Who constantly places
themselves in danger? Maybe hookers but most people are pretty careful about their personal safety.
Are they? Most the people? Are we talking about "most the people" here? I don't think so.
BTW You mean to tell me, of my entire post, you chose to home in on my last point about those who DO
hang out CONSTANTLY putting themselves in danger?
You mean to tell me you've never seen those who hang out in neightborhood bars, picking up on the
last available guy, near closing time, a different one every night, no questions ask?
Get real. Politically correct says women are helpless victims. Reality says those who make themselves
helpless, will always be victims.
sure the one you need [ex-glencarr] - 01:08am Aug 17, 2000 EST (#114 of 115)
That's because I didn't disagree with the rest of your post. And I don't think someone should put
themselves in danger but if they are in danger & get attacked, they are a victim. I don't see that as being
politically correct.
[lara croft] - 01:32am Aug 17, 2000 EST (#115 of 115)
Glen, reread the post. You've chosen to read it wrong. I can't understand how you did that. I think I made
myself perfectly clear. Women need to prepare themselves to defend themselves so as NOT to be a
victim BUT if they are victimized it's isn't the their fault and the person committing the assault should pay
to the fullest extent of the law. I didn't stutter, I was perfectly clear.
What part did you disagree with? The part that said:
Well, I must say, I've read this thread and I was pleasantly surprised at the level of civility exhibited here. I
saw point by point made in a calm, rational manner and for the most part, no name calling, no comparisons
to hedious people and no calling into question, a poster's lineage.
Or maybe this part:
What I did NOT see was one single post blaming the victim, despite insistence that it had happened.
Or this part?
I saw reasonable points made that women should take steps to protect themselves if they don't wish to be a
victim.
Could it have been this part?
I saw reasonable points made that if some guy is making unwanted advances, the very very very last thing
that a woman should do, is go to a private place, alone with this guy.
Okay, maybe it was this part?
I saw a reasonable point made that women have a say in their lives, they are not helpless victims of every
man who comes along, they CAN fight back by being aware of their surroundings and refusing to place
themselves in situations of danger.
Or maybe this part?
I did NOT see anyone say this was the case in EVERY situation nor that the attacker should be excused,
ever.
Could it have been this part?
I saw that point twisted to say that those making that particular argument were somehow telling children
they were to blame for any assault.
If not, then maybe this part?
I saw a very pursuasive argument made that given the predatory nature of some in society today, women
should do all they can to prevent attack.
And what about this part?
I did NOT see a post or poster who suggested that a rapist or someone who assaults a woman (or child)
should go free.
Could it have been this part?
But I did see an attempt to make any statement suggesting women had power over their own destiny, appear
as if the poster was saying the criminals should be excused.
Okay then, is this the part you disagreed with?
Let's be clear here, those who sexually assault anyone, women, children, or men, should be punished to the
fullest extent of the law. BUT - those who hang out, constantly placing themselves in danger, ready and
willing to be a victim, DO have some responsibility.
Yes? No? how about his part?
AND I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT CHILDREN.
And where did I say any of this:
And I don't think someone should put themselves in danger but if they are in danger & get attacked, they are
a victim. I don't see that as being politically correct.
sure the one you need [ex-glencarr] - 09:00am Aug 17, 2000 EST (#116 of 116)
^Okay then, is this the part you disagreed with?
Let's be clear here, those who sexually assault anyone, women, children, or men, should be punished to the fullest
extent of the law. BUT - those who hang out, constantly placing themselves in danger, ready and willing to be a
victim, DO have some responsibility.
This what I disagreed with, Lara. I think there are very few women who put themselves constantly in danger. I
remember hearing people say that the Central Park jogger shouldn't have been jogging where she was even though it
was a common area to go jogging. I've heard people question why young women went to frat parties. Naivete maybe
but I don't think of them as placing themselves in danger without regard to their own safety.
[lara croft] - 10:41am Aug 17, 2000 EST (#117 of 118)
This what I disagreed with, Lara. I think there are very few women who put themselves constantly in
danger.
Okay, that's your opinion and you are entitled to it. I happen to think that there are a lot of women who
are careless and unthinking, about what they are doing. Thankfully most are lucky and nothing comes
of it, while some are not so lucky and they get hurt or killed.
I remember hearing people say that the Central Park jogger shouldn't have been jogging where she was even
though it was a common area to go jogging. I've heard people question why young women went to frat
parties. Naivete maybe but I don't think of them as placing themselves in danger without regard to their
own safety.
Carelessness is an act of disgregard for one's own safety. Going to a frat party alone and drinking until
you are comatose certainly falls with in that definition. If the jogger was jogging alone in an area that
was isolated and had had problems before, that's a blatant disregard for one's own safety. It's careless
and it's exactly the kind of thing that gets women hurt or killed as your two examples have proven. The
drunken girl at the frat party winds up gang raped. The jogger is dead, had she been jogging with a
friend or maybe even a weapon, she'd be alive. Had she had some regard for her safety, and
considered her actions, and taken steps to protect herself, she'd be alive.
None of this excuses those who committed the crimes, and they should be prosecuted to the max, but
the fact remains that if they'd taken precautions, they'd be well, today.
Your disagreement seems to lie with the notion that women have a say over their lives. You seem to
think that women are just born victims and what is going to happen to them, will happen regardless of
anything they can do to prevent it, at least that's the feeling I'm getting from you.
You also seem to be disagreeing with my feelings that if a woman will just think about the position she is
putting herself in, she might spare herself some harm.
Well, it's not fair that a woman has to think about these things. It isn't right that a woman must constantly
consider the ramification of what she is doing at the moment and if what she is doing could possibly
lead to an assault.
But it's reality, cold harsh reality and realizing that this is reality, can save a woman a lot of grief.
Refusing to face reality and going off alone to a hotel room, with someone who has been making
UNWANTED advances is just begging for trouble.
Being safe trumps what is fair, in a situation like this, everytime and the woman who prepares for an
assault, makes sure she doesn't place herself in a position where she might be assaulted will live to die
of something, but it most likely won't be from an assault.
[surferchicklet] - 11:01am Aug 17, 2000 EST (#118 of 118)
Thank you, Lara.
sure the one you need [ex-glencarr] - 12:09pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#119 of 119)
Your disagreement seems to lie with the notion that women have a say over their lives. You seem to think that
women are just born victims and what is going to happen to them, will happen regardless of anything they
can do to prevent it, at least that's the feeling I'm getting from you.
You also seem to be disagreeing with my feelings that if a woman will just think about the position she is
putting herself in, she might spare herself some harm.
Not at all. But I know of at least one woman who went to a party with friends & there was liquor involved & she
was raped. I'd hate to tell her she should have known better. There have been times when I've put myself in danger
of getting mugged & I was lucky not to get mugged but if I had been, I don't think that I bear any responsibility. The
criminal gets all the blame in my opinion.
[McDuffy] - 12:46pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#120 of 121)
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 11:54pm Aug 15, 2000 EST (#14 of 119)
It's quite popular to blame the victim and make them feel awful because the girl didn't take *proper* steps to avoid
whatever happened. I think that's very wrong. That adds to the trauma. It reinforces the guilt, and it gives the
scumbags who prey on children more of an excuse to do so.
Its not about blame, necessarily...
Save Roe v Wade [~Libby~] - 01:18pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#47 of 119)
I don't think anyone here is saying blame the victims. Just know that sometimes there are things you can
do to reduce the likelihood of being victimized. That's all.
[Johnnyba] - 02:00pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#63 of 119)
KT I don't think that is blaming the victim to point out that there a situations that a grown women should
know to avoid. Most women know these situations by the time they are a teenager.
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 04:27pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#76 of 119)
And nobody here is blaming the victim, you refuse to see the argument and points being made here,...
Warning! Scan shows Dave in area! Look innocent. [_maggie_] - 05:53pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#86 of 119)
No one is "blaming the victims", McDuffy.
I simply don't believe that you WERE a victim.
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 06:48pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#89 of 118)
When are you going to get that it has nothing to do with blaming the victim.
HEY!! No fighting in the war room! [DaveGin] - 07:08pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#93 of 119)
I missed the part where innocent children were given suggestions not to put the blame for sexual assaults
on adults.
When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty [wardaddy] - 07:09pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#94 of 119)
Duffy found it, but like so much else that she sees, she only sees when the voices tell her to.
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 08:09pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#99 of 119) Then
why are you plummeting everybody over the head, trying get them to say they blame children for their
abuse? Nobody here has said that,
[lara croft] - 11:02pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#106 of 119) Well, I must say, I've read this thread and I was
pleasantly surprised at the level of civility exhibited here. I saw point by point made in a calm, rational
manner and for the most part, no name calling, no comparisons to hedious people and no calling into
question, a poster's lineage.
What I did NOT see was one single post blaming the victim, despite insistence that it had happened.
The coeds are back....it's hot.....life is good. [CooterBrown] - 11:15pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#108 of 119)
I have finally caught up on my thread. It seems that it got a little action today, and by my reading, there are
some misconceptions.
First of all, I haven't seen anyone blame the victim or advocate that. Let's drop that right now.
Wow, all of these claims that no one is blaming the victim.
Interesting
Okie doke. I had a good night's rest, and I'm going to go through this thread step by step. This is an important issue
to me.
And yes, many have said that other posters didn't see much of a problem with what Letourneau did. I've read that
many times over the past year although I wasn't here to see the responses when it happened. So yes, there has been
justification. There has been support for child molesters on this board. I have even read that many of the "feminist"
types here were not hard on Letourneau when all of the facts came out. Just to make that clear.
Libby
"I don't think as many women are guilty of those kinds of crimes"
do you remember all those Mary Kay LeTournou threads? Standard wisdom seemed to be that it just doesn't matter
as much when its a boy as it does when its a girl. They notion seems to be that boys can handle it better.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Now, I have to go back and highlight each and every thing I consider to be blaming the victim, putting down the
victim ... since of course everyone claims "oh no one has done that" I will highlight them. ...because I have that right
to...
I can talk about personal responsibility any damn time I please. I have photographed and counseled
women who were raped, not coaxed, but violently assulted
Non-violent vs. nonviolent rape/assault... which there were many discussion about just a few weeks ago on the
"RAPE" thread.
People continuously tried to explain to Maat and a few others that rape/assault is rape/assault. The victim still feels
the pain, still suffers the trauma. Non violent rape/assault is not insignificant -- as many were trying to explain. And
as usual, Maat was called every single name in the book and people asked why he had such warpaed beliefs - that
rape was rape - regardless of whether it was violent or nonviolent and it depends on who the victim is, how the
victim responds to the attack. Each victim is differerent --- as I had told him... civilly. I also had said that I had been
told the same thing that Maat is saying by someone who came on there flaming Maat for those same opinions.. and
of course told I was lying... the common thing to do here. But anyhow, the point is that there was a lot of discussion
on that thread and many posters agreed -- to go against Maat -- that all rape, all assault, all sexual crime can be very
traumatic to the victim and no one should be pit against another and compared and rated -- as far as the victim is
concerned. Many did agree that there are aggravating circumstances that increase the sentence for rape. I even made
a long post citing a case in which the sentence was remanded because the woman did not suffer "serious bodily
injury".
No. 95-2186
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Appellee,
v.
REYNALDO VAZQUEZ RIVERA,
Defendant, Appellant.
So I told Maat. You're right on that. I see what you mean... but only in terms of prosecution. I told him that. I helped
make one point of his while he was getting flamed for it, but I think he was still going a bit further as usual. But he
was basically saying what many on this thread have said.
and with girls who assumed because they are women and the guy is supposed to have permission to have
sex, they are safe anywhere.. that's bs. A girl who has been made a pass at and still goes to a
boys or a man's house, or any secluded spot can not say she had no idea what he
wanted. The litigation, victim, not myfalut... his fault... or hers.. or *it can't possibly be ME* crap that
floats around these days is a large part of the problem.
Hmmmm
If someone else would’ve said or defended this statement in one of the several rape discussions...
Lord have mercy
It just goes to show...
[McDuffy] - 12:47pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#121 of 123)
While its not excuseable for a man to have sex with an unwilling or unconscious partner, I think its equally
inexcuseable
I highlighted this earlier because of this type of association.
If one is really speaking about 2 separate issues, then why are they always lumped together in the same sentence.
Oh the guy, the perpetrator is the one to blame BUT!
There's that big butt again.
So, you take no responsibility in your own safety, McDuffy? You’ll go off with any man, regardless of
how well you know him? Well, no wonder....
No wonder what?
I read that there's no blame on this whole thread, so what does that statement mean?
McDuff... Why are you posting personnal mail..?
The only person who claimed it was personal mail was you.
When I read back, looks like a statement that somebody made. No one said it was an email, no one posted an email
address, or a name.
It someone wants to identify it as such.. well then he/she can do so.
Ok.. re-read it... and after almost a year I have found nothing in there I disagree with... a typo or
two, but what the hell.
no surprise there
That is straight up blaming the victim if I've seen it.
If any man would've said that he believed that... all hell would've broken loose. And he would've been called every
name in the book.
It's no surprise that I do not agree with that tripe.
I DID talk to women like that... When needed... often when months after their attack, or in some cases
what they believed to be an attack, they were still obsessing and dwelling on it...
Huh?
The effects of rape and sexual assault do not go away in 2 days. It can last a number of months -- the crying, the
depression -- Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Many times it doesn't even come out until much later. To say that
someone is "obsessing" over a rape or an assault ??? Good Lord
Making themselves sick over something that could not be changed,
This is bs. No victim can change what happened. But they are going to be effected by it regardless... some worse
than others.
and going right back into the same kind of situations/relationships that would end up just as badly... or had
already shown signs of that...
Battered women (who've also been raped) are more likely to end up in abusive relationships yes.
People, in general, who've been raped/assaulted do have their self esteem shattered and are probably more likely
than those who've not been abused/assaulted to find themselves in a similar situation.
So.. that is not an anomaly.
Nor does every victim do so. Some women/girls become scared of men and start thinking that all men are pigs.
The **I'm ok, you're ok** Kenneth Smalley or whatever type of counseling is not the kind of co-
dependent, *keep on picking that scab* kind of counseling needed in some cases.
Sometimes a little dose of Reality not ~~**reality**~~ is what is needed.
Sometimes our perceptions of the truth are not the Real truth... and we end up lying to ourselves and
others.
okay..............
If a woman (or man) is assaulted or raped, she will be effected. She will not jump up and forget about everything
that quickly. She actually will never forget...unless she represses it... which isn't good because it's likely to come out
later and fuck up her life. She should never be rushed. Each woman/victim is different. Each person heals at their
own pace.
Ahhh, and here we have more Kirk bashers, bashing Kirk for things he never wrote.
I have stuck up for Kirk many times. I just can't avoid pointing out things that he was flamed for on many past
threads while folks here say the same things that he's said and are not flamed for it like he was... and others jump on
the bandwagon. There wasn't any way I was going to leave that out.
-the mini tangent that Char and Surf was pointing out is that McDUffy took the above premise and stuck
children into it
Children was in the quote from the beginning. McDuffy didn't stick anything to anything.
and made it sound like that I (We) were saying that they were illegitmate victims
That is exactly what some have said. violent vs. nonviolent rape
And also another coming
I am not sure what Duff's point was...
I made my point clearly... and didn't include you or anyone else's name in it.
but mine is that YES, it is of course a bad thing to abuse children. A 38 yr old woman taking advantage of
a 12 yr old boy is sick.... a 38 yr old man taking advantage of a 12 yr old girl is sick...
And yes.. a big age difference is bad... BUT if a 16, 17, or 18 (ok, so 18 is legal... but anyway..) yr old is
around someone who is behaving as if they are interested in a sexual relationship, and those advances are
unwanted, and that person doesn't take care to not be in a situation where they are alone with the person,
and indeed agrees to go off alone with them, then the man might consider that their interest was returned...
Does that mean the same thing as:
A girl who has been made a pass at and still goes to a boys or a man's house, or any secluded spot can not say she
had no idea what he wanted
I figured women don't get as much publicity, because it doesn't happen as often, Cooter.
I'd have to agree.
It may not be reported as much, but I still believe that men are more predatory... based on statistics.
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 01:10pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#45 of 118)
I think a 17 year old has to be given more credit than a child - a 17 year old does have the awareness to
understand a possible dangerous situation, or even a compromising situation.
Nowhere did I say that a 4 year old and a 17 year old have the same thinking.
But that in no way means that a 16 or 17 year old should not be protected as a minor, as a juvenile, under the law
when they are preyed upon. And they many times are. They can be manipulated just as well. The difference is in
how much they can be manipulated... and all teens are not the same. All teens have not had sexual experiences. All
teens have not been in situations where someone wanted sex from them. People need to realize that. I hear so much
talk about teens running around here and there, but all teens are not like that.
If you want to talk about preventative measures, then we should discuss it. But once the attack happens,
that conversation should end and attention placed on the crime. (Kt)
That is correct. There is a kind of sick mixing of the 2 topics that is an obvious attempt (by many) to place blame on
the victim.
[McDuffy] - 12:49pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#122 of 123)
You see, some people have a problem with the truth...
Once they hear it and some part of them realizes it, unlike and adult who can absorb it, learn and grow, they
have to lash out at the person how points it out to them in an effort to deny it.
This truth you mean?
and with girls who assumed because they are women and the guy is supposed to have permission to have sex, they
are safe anywhere.. that's bs. A girl who has been made a pass at and still goes to a boys or a man's house, or any
secluded spot can not say she had no idea what he wanted. The litigation, victim, not myfalut... his fault... or hers..
or *it can't possibly be ME* crap that floats around these days is a large part of the problem.
If that's your version of truth, I and I hope many others will find their own.
This is blaming the victim pure and simple.
I simply said that if a person is 16 or 17, able to drive, and have a job, and are in that limbo between
adolecent and adult they have shown at least some indications of maturity...
If that person or anyone else, was being sexually harrassed and then accepted an invitation to go off alone
with the person, that is not the most intelligent move they might have made.
Of course the man should accept *NO* for an answer if it is said, but in complete honesty, if a man is
making sexual remarks, suggestions, advances, and then asks the person they are hitting on to go
somewhere it is understandable why he might think she found him attractive and all that.
SO... THAT said... Why would a woman of any age put her self in that position?
Maybe she deserved to be raped/assaulted right?
I have seen teenage girls literally pushing themselves onto adult men, and vice versa.
Does that make it right for adults men to push themselves onto teenage girls?
If not, what is the point of that statement?
Adult-Child Sex: Is It Abuse or Misuse?
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 01:31pm Aug 16, 2000 EST (#56 of 118)
And, YES, I do believe that a seventeen year old has the capacity to judge whether to go into a dangerous
situtation...
Meaning what?
If one is raped or assaulted then she deserved it right?
I have also spoken to women who were coerced not forced... and for the most part those women had to
think about it for a day or two before they realized they had been raped... And it opened their eyes... A
husband who threatens his wife with being thrown out of the house if she doesn't perform is a rapist.
If that woman goes back into the house knowing he is interested in her just as a sex object, and will likeky
expect sex whether she is interested or not, she is stupid.
Note to self: Refer to battered abused women as weak and stupid after I get my masters degree in social work
But... I am also not a hand wringing, *Oh, poor you, it's horrible just horrible, of course there was nothing
you could have done to prevent it* kind of person. If there was something that could have been done to
prevent it I will point that out. Especially if some time has passed and that person has had lots of
counseling, yet still seems to be clinging to the *Victim* label like a badge of honor...
This seems to be a popular saying around here.
But I guess a person isn't considered a victim unless they were violently raped and had their eye popped out.
Children are children and teenagers are teenagers.
Teenagers are children. If the law doesn't give a 16 or 17 year old the same rights as an 18 year old .. even up to the
day before an 18th birthday, then the minor should have those protections under the law. A 17 year old cannot even
go to court on their own. So yes, ask most parents who have older teens, "Do you have consider your 16 or 17 year
old to be a child?" I think you'll find the same answer.
and seventeen year olds who maintain voluntary sexual relationships with 30 year olds are not victims.
Where did anyone say anything about a voluntary sexual relationship?
As FAHayak said above, a 17-year-old woman who enters into a voluntary sexual relationship with a 30-
year-old man is not a victim unless she was forcibly raped.
Where did anyone say anything about a voluntary sexual relationship?
You post amazing stuff, girl. You openly flirt, post "come-ons" and all kinds of stuff with sexual
innuendo- and the best part is you have no idea of who the hell you are really posting to.
oh please
I'm not the one sitting there posting about whether or not I have a gag reflex.
There's a difference between innocent flirting and downright smut.
No doubt something occurred in your teenage years, and no one is saying it is your fault. But you don't
show much maturity when you come in here and post your flirtations, etc. and then turn around and start
screaming about "victims". And why do you take this all so personally? No one is directing this at you.
see above
Has it ever occurred to you that you could be setting yourself up? To be a victim? Again? You should take
a look at that sometime....
yeah sure
I'll consider that next time I try to turn up the flirt with Mr. Bear Armstrong
"Please! I'm setting myself up. I wanted to flirt with you on this thread since you're such a hot stud but it's
dangerous!
Please! please! please! don't do a paid seach on me!"
[McDuffy] - 12:49pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#123 of 123)
No one is "blaming the victims", McDuffy.
I simply don't believe that you WERE a victim. I believe you involved yourself with someone
you had no business being involved with and he involved himself with someone he had no business being
involved with.
You were young and inexperienced and he was stupid, arrogant and horny. Unless he forced you to commit a
sexual act against your will, made you do something that you didn't want to do, threatened you in some
way, etc., it was an unfortunate life experience but not harrassment or assault.
Who the hell are you to tell me what happened to me and what I did or did not experience? You don't know me. You
only know about yourself.
You and several others’ hatred for me is so deep -- very deep -- that you are willing to make these broad brush
generalizations no matter how many girls/victims whose situations are strikingly similar. There are even many
women/girls who suffer harm from being touched inappropriately by an older male family friend or neighbor (not
incest situations). Sex didn't occur or clothes were never removed, but they were still troubled and had thoughts
about it years later. I've talked to people like this.
I have a 16 year old friend that I talk to almost everyday, who was raped by her cousin and his friends for over a
number of years. She was also molested by her father whom she still lives with.
She told me "abuse is abuse, all of it is bad"
It's not a contest to see whose rape or assault was worse.
[surferchicklet] - 01:06pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#124 of 127)
McDuffy.
A girl who has been made a pass at and still goes to a
boys or a man's house, or any secluded spot can not say
she had no idea what he wanted.
Is this the basis of this whole big hatred thing you have going?
I do not hate you. I kind of feel sorry for you actually, but tbh I don't think enough about you to hate you.
You can't change the past... you can only affect the future... Learn for the past and don't let it control the
rest of your actions/life....
It's like a bandaid... rip it off quick, and take a little skin... sometimes it hurts, but then the wound can get
air and heal...
Or soak it off slow and leave all that sticky stuff behind to pick and and bother you...
Or leave the bandaid on and the wound festers and becomes filled with pus to explode at some point...
Your choice.
I did not *claim* it was personnal mail. I stated it.
You posted it as some sort of ammo against Duh, and that was not right.
I said nothing about it being a personal situation... just that it was a piece of mail sent in reply to
something you sent me.
You said it was a personal situation...
[McDuffy] - 01:07pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#125 of 127)
I do not hate you
lol
like I care
This is what I said:
You and several others’ hatred for me is so deep -- very deep -- that you are willing to make these broad
brush generalizations no matter how many girls/victims whose situations are strikingly similar. There
are even many women/girls who suffer harm from being touched inappropriately by an older male
family friend or neighbor (not incest situations). Sex didn't occur or clothes were never removed, but
they were still troubled and had thoughts about it years later. I've talked to people like this.
I have a 16 year old friend that I talk to almost everyday, who was raped by her cousin and his male &
female friends for over a number of years. She was also molested by her father whom she still lives with.
She told me "abuse is abuse, all of it is bad"
It's not a contest to see whose rape or assault was worse.
All of my points are in post 120 to post 123.
[surferchicklet] - 01:15pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#126 of 127)
Of course you care, or you wouldn't harp on it so.
And to believe that the *broad brush* thing is the result of someone's hatred of you the *hatred* has to
be there...
It isn't.
Irritation, and some pity, and and bit weirded out that you would put so much info out there and then
bring up that search crap again...
What in God's name could anyone have found out about you that you haven't posted on the damn
boards already...
Kind of like watching a train wreck actually... a little horrifying to see but you just can't look away...
[McDuffy] - 01:18pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#127 of 127)
LOL
sure...
[Johnnyba] - 01:24pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#128 of 132)
Oh for god sakes.
McDuffy I do not hate you but I don't think you are a victim either. We talked about this enough last fall
and you know what I think.
The only broad brush here is yours. Nobody said anything about this until you quoted what was said to
you in private last fall completly out of context. Why are you dragging this out again now and what on
earth does it have to do with Cooter's topic?
What happened to you is not even in the same ballpark as what happened to your friend. Not the story
you told me anyhow.
[McDuffy] - 01:27pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#129 of 132)
McDuffy I do not hate you but I don't think you are a victim either.
I know what you think.
You were completely wrong and I'm glad I figured it out. :-) And hate me all you want, it doesn't affect me
anymore "hon".
We talked about this enough last fall and you know what I think.
And I don't care what you think. :-)
The only broad brush here is yours.
bullshit
provide quotes
back up your argument
Nobody said anything about this until you quoted what was said to you in private last fall completly out of
context.
I didn't state anything was a private email and it had a lot to do with the topic. The post is still there.
Why are you dragging this out again now and what on earth does it have to do with Cooter's topic?
Don't worry about me sweetheart and see above. :-)
What happened to you is not even in the same ballpark as what happened to your friend. Not the story you
told me anyhow.
Where did I say that? :-)
Point it out for me. :-)
I can't be silenced sweetheart. You wanna debate me, then let's debate.
I've upped my standards, now up yours. [charolais] - 01:34pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#130 of 132)
You post amazing stuff, girl. You openly flirt, post "come-ons" and all kinds of stuff with sexual
innuendo- and the best part is you have no idea of who the hell you are really posting to.
oh please I'm not the one sitting there posting about whether or not I have a gag reflex. There's a difference
between innocent flirting and downright smut.
Excuse me? Considering you are so prolific with Word processing and archiving posts, you come up
with my posts where I have stated that I either have a gag reflex or not. If you are going to post remarks
like that, you back it, girl.
Your whole philosophy boils down to pure victim consciousness; no one should be personally
responsible for anything. You don't see the forest thru the trees because you are so incapable of moving
forward, growing up and dealing with your experiences.
You just float through life with no regard for self-preservation and then claim victim status when it comes
back to bite you in the ass. Proof of that is the fact that you have posted all your problems, psychological
issues and everything else about you on these boards for over a year. You do nothing but try to draw
attention to yourself, turn every issue that comes up about race or rape into a thread about you and your
experiences and then you claim we all hate you and are discriminating against you or your personal
experiences.
Of all the people I have seen here, correspond with and otherwise, I have to say that in your case- these
boards are not the most conducive place for someone with the problems you express. You are in deep
need of help, McDuff, I truly hope that someday you will not only get the proper help, but you will also
find it within yourself to help yourself a bit, too.
[McDuffy] - 01:35pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#131 of 132)
Oh ok! Who didn't see the talk of gag relfex in the RR? lol Get off of it. I NEVER said that was you.
[McDuffy] - 01:36pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#132 of 132) (Post Edited then reposted...)
LOL
Yeah, I'll take your advice and get my masters with it.
The mental health shit doesn't fly anymore.
Next!
[McDuffy] - 01:36pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#132 of 138)
LOL
Yeah, I'll take your advice and get my masters with it.
The mental health shit doesn't fly. And it's pure bullshit.
You and others can try to convince everyone of that like you have so many times in the past. I don't care.
I know myself and that's all that matters.
I am strong Black woman and nothing can bring me down.
Period.
[McDuffy] - 01:38pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#133 of 138)
So...
Is anyone going to attempt to address my points?
If not, I shall not respond to this further "gang up". But I do expect more to come.
But I don't care! And it's great! LOLOL
The coeds are back....it's hot.....life is good. [CooterBrown] - 01:40pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#134 of
135)
"and with girls who assumed because they are women and the guy is supposed to have permission to
have sex, they are safe anywhere.. that's bs. A girl who has been made a pass at and still goes to a
boys or a man's house, or any secluded spot can not say she had no idea what he wanted. The
litigation, victim, not myfalut... his fault... or hers.. or *it can't possibly be ME* crap that floats around
these days is a large part of the problem.
If that's your version of truth, I and I hope many others will find their own.
That is blaming the victim pure and simple."
Bullshit. That is not blaming the victim, and I'm getting tired of seeing the same old thing here that I've
seen before.
Duffy, if you want to drag up old stuff that doesn't relate to this thread and start a fight, go start your own
thread.
I've upped my standards, now up yours. [charolais] - 01:41pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#135 of 135)
Oh ok! Who didn't see the talk of gag relfex in the RR? lol Get off of it. I NEVER said that was you.
you just responded to my post with that remark, tho. If you are gonna backpedal, McD- get good at it
[McDuffy] - 01:43pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#136 of 136)
Bullshit. That is not blaming the victim, and I'm getting tired of seeing the same old thing here that I've
seen before.
Oh it's not.
Tell me how it isn't.
Look
I will debate.
That's it. If you don't want to debate my points, then don't address me.
I have responsed to posts that were made... and I have every right to.
What was it that Dave told me in email a couple days ago when I complained about the vitriol in the RR.
Something like just because someone responds doesn't mean it's flamebait.
Then hey!
I responded.
If you don't like my response, deal with it.
But don't ever think that I won't respond.
But don't ever think that I won't respond and don't ever tell me that I don't have any right to do so. (edited version)
"Truth is the highest thing that man may keep." [Shroom] - 01:47pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#137 of
138)
I see that McD is still going at it...
poor girl.. Iwonder just how big her hard drive is for all the archiving that she does.
Or does she use Zip Disks?
When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty [wardaddy] - 01:48pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#138 of
138)
Psuedo to the left
Same psuedo to the right
See, I told you
It was a horrible sight.
The coeds are back....it's hot.....life is good. [CooterBrown] - 01:55pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#139 of
143)
Duffy, you have yet to point out how those posts are blaming the victim. Having an opinion is fine.
Telling another poster that they meant something other than what they said and what they have said
that they meant isn't exactly going to foster discussion. I shouldn't have to tell you that.
You've done that before in the past, and as thread parent, I'm not going to put up with it because it is
dishonest. Everyone knows where the thread goes then.
You are perfectly welcome to post here and add to the discussion of the thread topic.
[surferchicklet] - 01:57pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#140 of 143)
Not sure Shroom...
But I do know she thinks she has to have attention... good or bad, she doesn't care...
McDuffy... Debate? No. You try to twist what people say to fit your version of reality, and seem to believe
the one with the longest most annoying posts wins...S trong? No. Black? So? Woman? Hardly...
Grow up little girl...
And I was wrong... I do have a gag reflex... just takes crap like this to trigger it...
Later...
<shun>
[McDuffy] - 01:59pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#141 of 143)
CooterBrown 8/17/00 1:55pm
Do you need a definition of "blaming the victim"?
I made my points clear as day in posts 120-123.
You've done that before in the past, and as thread parent, I'm not going to put up with it because it is
dishonest. Everyone knows where the thread goes then.
Bullshit. Address my arguments.
They are ALL there.
Which part are you confused about? Quote it and I'll clear it up for you.
You are perfectly welcome to post here and add to the discussion of the thread topic.
Uh, no one needs to tell me this. I am perfectly welcome to post anywhere I please.
Just like YOU or anyone else here.
[McDuffy] - 02:04pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#142 of 143)
Debate? No. You try to twist what people say to fit your version of reality
Address my arguments.
If you don't understand a statement that I made, then quote it and I'll clear it up for you.
Every single post is still here.
Anyone can read from the beginning.
If you don't understand a statement that I made, then quote it and I'll clear it up for you.
When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty [wardaddy] - 02:05pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#143 of
143)
Psuedo to the left....
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 02:13pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#144 of 144)
You ARE having some sort of meltdown, aren't you Duff?
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 11:54pm Aug 15, 2000 EST (#14 of 119)
It's quite popular to blame the victim and make them feel awful because the girl didn't take *proper*
steps to avoid whatever happened. I think that's very wrong. That adds to the trauma. It reinforces the
guilt, and it gives the scumbags who prey on children more of an excuse to do so.
I didn't post this, YOU DID, and you are a fraud for associating my name with it.
And yes, many have said that other posters didn't see much of a problem with what Letourneau did. I've
read that many times over the past year although I wasn't here to see the responses when it happened. So
yes, there has been justification. There has been support for child molesters on this board. I have even
read that many of the "feminist" types here were not hard on Letourneau when all of the facts came out.
Just to make that clear.
I didn't even POST about Letourneau OR child MOLESTERS. You want someone, or a lot of someones to vilify,
even if you have to attribute imagine motives to their post.
People continuously tried to explain to Maat and a few others that rape/assault is rape/assault. <rambling
bullshit snipped>Many did agree that there are aggravating circumstances that increase the sentence for
rape. I even made a long post citing a case in which the sentence was remanded because the woman did not
suffer "serious bodily injury".
We WERE discussing the topic of responsibility for safety, but you seem to have avoided this subject again. So,
again, I ask, you don't think you should some take responsibility in your own safety? Being proactive, so events like
rape or assault don't occur. Or do you think its better to have it happen, and then punish, or say, SUE the
perpetrator?
While its not excuseable for a man to have sex with an unwilling or unconscious partner, I think its equally
inexcuseable
I highlighted this earlier because of this type of association.
If one is really speaking about 2 separate issues, then why are they always lumped together in the same
sentence.
Oh the guy, the perpetrator is the one to blame BUT!
There's that big butt again.
You call me a butt? Your a giant ASS, McDuffy. You again have missed the entire point, and then took everything
out of context. Is that why you archive our posts? I would think you would post them honestly, but you don't even
do that. If you had posted the whole sentence, you couldn't then attribute your own meaning to it, could you? These
are tactics of a desperate debater drowning and reaching for any life line...
The only person who claimed it was personal mail was you.
Why don't you ask Surferchick who's email it was she sent that in...
Mcduffy, you aren't even coherent now.... I can't even continue with trying to refute the rest of your public
breakdown, because I have tears in my eyes from laughing so hard....
BTW, people don't argue with crazy people ('cept for me I like a challenge) .... THAT'S why nobody is answering
your tirade.
[McDuffy] - 02:16pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#145 of 148)
Mcduffy, you aren't even coherent now....
Duh_ 8/17/00 2:13pm
LOL
When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty [wardaddy] - 02:16pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#146 of
148)
...Same psuedo to the right....
I've upped my standards, now up yours. [charolais] - 02:19pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#147 of 148)
I didn't post this, YOU DID, and you are a fraud for associating my name with it.
ah, that would be post #9 of SilkyButter/McDuffy.... yep
[Johnnyba] - 02:20pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#148 of 148)
McDuffy if you need to talk about this subject endlessly and making yourself a target why not start your
own thread on the subject again?
Your problems have nothing to do with Cooter's subject. Not even slightly.
You must really enjoy going at it with these people who you think hate you. You get yourself into it
enough.
[McDuffy] - 02:20pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#149 of 150)
Oh goodness. If you look back, you will see that that part of the post is in italics which means that
someone else said it.
Okie doke?
When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty [wardaddy] - 02:21pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#150 of
150)
...See, I told you
It was a horrible sight
[McDuffy] - 02:23pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#151 of 152)
McDuffy if you need to talk about this subject endlessly and making yourself a target why not start your
own thread on the subject again?
get off of it
Address my points if you want to debate.
I've said that again and again.
Ask me something in relation to what I posted... then I will address your response.
Your problems have nothing to do with Cooter's subject. Not even slightly.
Did I say that?
Can you address my arguments?
At all?
You must really enjoy going at it with these people who you think hate you. You get yourself into it
enough.
I don't give a shit who hates me. Especially here. I'm not going to be silenced just because you or
anyone else doesn't want me to post.
I will post.
I will respond.
Just like everyone else does.
Let's see if you can refute my arguments.
Or if not, no one's forcing you to address me.
[McDuffy] - 02:27pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#152 of 152)
I'll go back and address all of Duh's post.
I've upped my standards, now up yours. [charolais] - 02:33pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#153 of 154)
Good God Almighty already.
You done throwing your tantrum yet? How old are you anyway? Two?
[Johnnyba] - 02:33pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#154 of 154)
Points? What argument? All I see is you claiming that people are saying things that they are not saying.
Nobody thinks that children are to blame for getting raped. But I think that 17 is not a child. You knew
what you were getting yourself into. You wanted it even. If I go through my mail I have you admitting that
someplace.
The gay talked dirty, he came on to you, he made his intentions abundently clear. You liked the
atention, it got you horny. You went along with it and freaked out and started screaming at the last
minute.
The guy let you go. No rape. Case closed.
That has nothing to do with older women taking advantage of younger men. You were wrong to drag a
quote from last fall into this. You were just asking for everyone to start swirling around you and carrying
on about you like they always do.
Gawd give it a rest. You are acting exactly like Tony.
[McDuffy] - 02:39pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#155 of 156)
You ARE having some sort of meltdown, aren't you Duff?
you wish
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 11:54pm Aug 15, 2000 EST (#14 of 119)
It's quite popular to blame the victim and make them feel awful because the girl didn't take *proper*
steps to avoid whatever happened. I think that's very wrong. That adds to the trauma. It reinforces the
guilt, and it gives the scumbags who prey on children more of an excuse to do so.
I didn't post this, YOU DID, and you are a fraud for associating my name with it.
Fraud eh?
Point out exactly where that I said you posted it.
And yes, many have said that other posters didn't see much of a problem with what Letourneau did. I've
read that many times over the past year although I wasn't here to see the responses when it happened.
So yes, there has been justification. There has been support for child molesters on this board. I have
even read that many of the "feminist" types here were not hard on Letourneau when all of the facts came
out. Just to make that clear.
I didn't even POST about Letourneau OR child MOLESTERS.
I never said that you did!
Everything in posts 120-123 wasn't addressed to you.
You want someone, or a lot of someones to vilify, even if you have to attribute imagine motives to their
post.
Point that out please.
And see above.
People continuously tried to explain to Maat and a few others that rape/assault is rape/assault.
<rambling bullshit snipped>
Many did agree that there are aggravating circumstances that increase the sentence for rape. I even
made a long post citing a case in which the sentence was remanded because the woman did not suffer
"serious bodily injury".
We WERE discussing the topic of responsibility for safety, but you seem to have avoided this subject
again.
That is NOT the only thing that was being discussed.
And I pointed out where claims of that argument were really attempts to blame the victim. I did so in
posts 120-123.
I also said that people are confusing 2 separate issues and someone said, but I also think that they are
trying to tie the 2 together to assign blame to the victim in some cases.
So, again, I ask, you don't think you should some take responsibility in your own safety?
I never said that one shouldn't.
Being proactive, so events like rape or assault don't occur. Or do you think its better to have it happen, and
then punish, or say, SUE the perpetrator?
Huh?
If the victim wants to pursue a civil suit, then that's her own damned business. For many victims, it does
bring a sense of closure.
While its not excuseable for a man to have sex with an unwilling or unconscious partner, I think its equally
inexcuseable
I highlighted this earlier because of this type of association.
If one is really speaking about 2 separate issues, then why are they always lumped together in the
same sentence.
Oh the guy, the perpetrator is the one to blame BUT!
There's that big butt again.
You call me a butt? Your a giant ASS, McDuffy.
lol, nowhere did I call you a "butt"
It was a play on words. Referring to my displeasure with the "buts" I keep hearing. The "buts" many
times turn it into a blaming the victim situation.
But thanks for asking.
You again have missed the entire point, and then took everything out of context.
Prove it.
I've addressed all of the points that you made. I did take anything out of context. You can see my posts
120-123 for further explanation.
Is that why you archive our posts? I would think you would post them honestly, but you don't even do
that. If you had posted the whole sentence, you couldn't then attribute your own meaning to it, could you?
These are tactics of a desperate debater drowning and reaching for any life line...
Please point out what you're talking about.
and see above
The only person who claimed it was personal mail was you.
Why don't you ask Surferchick who's email it was she sent that in...
As I said, there was no email address or mention of anyone's name. If someone came on the thread and
wanted to say that whatever statement came from here or there, I guess they can do whatever.
Mcduffy, you aren't even coherent now....
Sure :-)
Just address my points.
I can't even continue with trying to refute the rest of your public breakdown, because I have tears in my
eyes from laughing so hard....
I'm glad that you're having a good time.
That's the meaning of Pathfinder.
BTW, people don't argue with crazy people ('cept for me I like a challenge) .... THAT'S why nobody is
answering your tirade.
really, good for you
If I was a word could my letters number a hundred? More likely coarse and guttural one
syllable Anglo-Saxon [Nigel] - 02:40pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#156 of 156)
But I think that 17 is not a child.
What if the 17 year old has the mentality of a 12 year old?
I've upped my standards, now up yours. [charolais] - 02:55pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#157 of 165)
16 minutes and counting
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 02:57pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#158 of 165)
Lessee, you ramble almost incoherently in some sort of weird, almost transcendental frenzy on for FIVE
pages, not posting attribution, ignoring or not understanding the points everyone is trying to make, and
you think your not having a meltdown? Your right your not having a meltdown, your full bore looney. I
think people are just waiting for you to gather what marbles off the floor you can find before even trying
to talk to you. Well, I’m done for now (one of the bigger laughs I had this morning) and I’m off to work
(oppsy, didn’t mean to say "work", one of those hot button subjects for you as well, eh? LOL)....
[McDuffy] - 02:58pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#159 of 165)
Points? What argument? All I see is you claiming that people are saying things that they are not saying.
Where?
Point that out.
I keep saying that yet you fail to do so.
Nobody thinks that children are to blame for getting raped. But I think that 17 and 3/4 is not a child.
I have an August birthday. Don't get caught in a lie.
Why can't you address the arguments?
Read posts 120 - 123.
You knew what you were getting yourself into. You wanted it even. If I go through my mail I have you
admitting that someplace.
You're a bastard. And I never summed it up into one thing. It's 6 pages, very small font, single spaced.
It's not one thing that happened. A couple of others have seen it.
So you go through you damned email. I know what happened to me. I was there. You were not.
Why don't you address the damned arguments that I made?
The guy talked dirty, he came on to you, he made his intentions abundently clear. You liked the atention, it
got you horny. You went along with it and freaked out and started screaming at the last minute.
You are such a bastard.
I knew you didn't like me..as I just found out a few weeks ago after I've known you for over a year, but
you didn't have to resort to that.
I don't know what you're trying to do, but just know that your words have no effect on me anymore. You
can't send me in to tears like you used to be able to do so easily.
As I said, I am much stronger now.
I had looked up to you so much and it was a shock to find out how wrong I was. How much you lied and
laughed at me behind the scenes.
And you're a bastard for writing that.
If you ever have children, I hope that you will take the time to understand them...even as teenagers. You
would never have talked to a family member that way.
The guy let you go. No rape. Case closed.
You don't know what it was. I never used the term "rape". You are not the police and you are not my
lawyer.
And you are definitely not my friend.
That has nothing to do with older women taking advantage of younger men. You were wrong to drag a
quote from last fall into this.
You're plain disgusting. I never put anyone's name in this. A quote is a quote.
If someone joked about burning crosses in my front yard... and I post that some unnamed person said
that to me... the only way people will know is if that person comes forward as says "hey, yeah I said it.
What's it to ya?"
What you have done... does not compare.
You were just asking for everyone to start swirling around you and carrying on about you like they always
do.
I will not be silenced just because of the sentiments people have for me. Period.
I can respond to any post just like anyone else here.
Hate me all you want. I do not care.
But I will never disrespect anyone in the way that you have disrespected me. Never. I'm better than that.
Gawd give it a rest. You are acting exactly like Tony.
oh really?
I've heard that one before...
Address my points.
You've already done everything you possibly could to turn my friends against me and hurt me like no
one could ever imagine. You've betrayed me like no one else ever has.
But I still remain strong.
And I forever will.
I've upped my standards, now up yours. [charolais] - 03:01pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#160 of 165)
19 minutes and she's OFF!
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 03:03pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#161 of 165)
BTW, I think the hamster in your head is dead. Might be time for a new one...
The coeds are back....it's hot.....life is good. [CooterBrown] - 03:03pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#162 of
165)
Ok, Duffy. Let's take post # 120. You include parts of posts from a number of people where they say that
they aren't blaming the victim, and then you turn around and say that all of them are blaming the victim.
Who appointed you God so that you can say what someone else is actually thinking? That is dishonest.
As to the rest of your post, I suppose that you know what it means. I doubt that anyone else does.
Post # 121. You still say that you see a lot of blaming the victim, but you don't point out how.
Post # 122, you do have an example of what you say is "blaming the victim." The problem is, in spite of
the author's insistence that she isn't blaming the victim and doesn't intend to, you persist in trying to put
words in her mouth.
You've equated Duh's comment that a 17 year old has the ability to make judgments about potentially
dangerous situations to "If one is raped or assaulted then she deserved it right?" Again you put words in
other people's posts, and insist that that is what he or she meant.
It also appears that you have posted part of a personal email, which as you know Dave has said is
forbidden. You are also trying to change the thread and bringing up unrelated issues. I have asked you
not to do that, as have others. Try acting like an adult for a change, and things will be fine.
When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty [wardaddy] - 03:05pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#163 of
165)
Cooter
Does the phrase "photographic mind but no film" come to mind?
I'll try being nicer if "you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 03:07pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#164 of 165)
"Address my points.
That’s a laugh. You expect treatment and courtesies that you won’t extend to everyone else....
"But I still remain strong.
And I forever will."
You’ll become a candidate for the laughing factory, is what you on the road to...
I've upped my standards, now up yours. [charolais] - 03:14pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#165 of 165)
If someone joked about burning crosses in my front yard... and I post that someone said that... the only
way people will know is if that person comes forward as says "hey, yeah I said it. What's it to ya?"
I said that to you McDuffy- and it was a reponse to your INCESSANT whining. I posted that months ago.
You were busy playing the race card and going on and on about yourself, as usual, and I asked you,
"what's your problem, someone burn a cross in your yard??"
I can admit to what I post, McD- I remember what I post- I don't backpedal, whine or carry on like a 2
year old when called on something.
You are in real need of help girl.... seriously so. You are obviously in denial and when someone finally
slams the truth up at you, you resort to calling them a bastard.
You made your bed here, now you are getting to lay in it- and the only one you have to blame is
yourself.
You really need to get off the boards, McD- you are not helping yourself, you make yourself completely
nuts over what? Stuff you have told others, posted on the boards for everyone to see, and then you
change your story so many times that you have no credibilty left.
I'm sorry you don't see it, but like I said, this forum is not conducive to a person with your personality
issues. You are NOT a STRONG person, not in the least- you go off like a damned screaming meemee
everytime something like this comes up, issues concerning something that have obviously affected you
very deeply, you come into it, try and turn it all around and make it about YOUR experience- that is sick,
McD. That is not what normal people do.
I am at the point I don't know what to say to you anymore- I could continue to rip and shred you to
absolutely nothing, but considering your emotional state, I don't think that is fair.
Warning! Scan shows Dave in area! Look innocent. [_maggie_] - 03:20pm Aug 17, 2000 EST
(#166 of 170)
Who the hell are you to tell me what happened to me and what I did or did not experience? You don't
know me. You only know about yourself.
Madam, when you first came on this board you started a thread, highlighting your experience. YOU
alone brought YOUR experience into THIS thread. My opinion on what happened to you is based
solely on YOUR explanation on this board a year ago. If you have left something out of YOUR
explanation, then perhaps I would change my opinion with regard to whether or not I feel you were a
victim. But, as it stands, if I was on a jury trying to decide a sexual assault case, and you presented the
"evidence" that you've presented, I would stand by my opinion that you were not a victim. This opinion
has nothing whatsoever to do with you personally. I based it on YOUR words alone.
Now, this obviously isn't a court of law, but I am still entitled to voice my opinion of whatever you choose
to put out on this board, temper tantrums or dramatic rants aside. Your agreement or disagreement with
me doesn't enter into the picture, it's simply my opinion. So, to quote YOU....deal with it.
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 03:23pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#167 of 170)
...we need to resuscitate that damn hamster, is what we need to do...
Also, I think when maggie says that she thinks YOU are not the victim, it may mean tha she thinks YOU
are not the victim, and NOT that victims are to blame for the crimes perpetrated against them...
When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty [wardaddy] - 03:26pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#168 of
170)
I'm going to go pop some popcorn.
[McDuffy] - 03:28pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#169 of 170)
The coeds are back....it's hot.....life is good. [CooterBrown] - 03:03pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#162 of 164)
Ok, Duffy. Let's take post # 120. You include parts of posts from a number of people where they say that
they aren't blaming the victim, and then you turn around and say that all of them are blaming the victim.
I never said that.
Those posts were quoted because they were claims that no one was doing that.
So what.. are you putting words in my mouth? Isn't that fraud?
The entire thread is here to read.
Who appointed you God so that you can say what someone else is actually thinking? That is dishonest. As
to the rest of your post, I suppose that you know what it means. I doubt that anyone else does.
????
You can say this all you want. It's easy to say things like this without backing it up. I am not putting words
in anyone's mouth. If I responded with a question, then that's a hint to clarify.
There's a difference between an interrogative statement and a declarative statement.
And... on a bulletin board, what posters really meant is continuously called into question if that person
never clarified...or if something they said doen't make sense or go together.
It is not wrong to question what was meant by a particular statement.
This is common sense.
And it's done here everyday.
Post # 121. You still say that you see a lot of blaming the victim, but you don't point out how.
I went back to read it.
What part of my post don't you understand?
My points are clear and concise.
Post # 122, you do have an example of what you say is "blaming the victim." The problem is, in spite
of the author's insistence that she isn't blaming the victim and doesn't intend to, you
persist in trying to put words in her mouth.
Whatever! This is called debate. If *I* recognize a statement as "blaming the victim" and state that, it's
not putting words in anyone's mouth! It's up to the "author" to say that it's not or how it's not if he/she
chooses to respond.
But if others are left with an interpretation other than what the "author" is claiming (Maat, for instance), it
is NOT putting words in someone's mouth, it is NOT twisting, and it is NOT fraud no matter how many
times you say so.
You've equated Duh's comment that a 17 year old has the ability to make judgments about potentially
dangerous situations to "If one is raped or assaulted then she deserved it right?"
Again you put words in other people's posts, and insist that that is what he or she meant.
If she did NOT mean that, then she can EXPLAIN. That is why it was phrased as a question.
And see above. I've already addressed much of this.
It also appears that you have posted part of a personal email, which as you know Dave has said is forbidden.
Who said it was a personal email?
Did I say that?
It was a quote and it was phrased as such.
I never put anyone's name in this. A quote is a quote.
If someone joked about burning crosses in my front yard... and I post that some unnamed person said
that to me... the only way people will know is if that person comes forward as says "hey, yeah I said it.
What's it to ya?"
You are also trying to change the thread and bringing up unrelated issues.
I respond to others' responses and have done so from the beginning.
I've upped my standards, now up yours. [charolais] - 03:30pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#170 of 170)
But I still remain strong.
And I forever will.
No, Duffy- You ARE NOT strong- you are simply using this board to justify something that happened to
you- you have not gone forward at all, you are filled with some terribly maladjusted feelings about your
experience. You seem to refuse to come to terms with what ever occurred and obviously hang on to
some very negative emotions like they are some kind of security for you.
You are 22 years of age, you use this experience to wallow in your misery, so you have reasons not to
go out into the real world and be a productive citizen and account for something. NO, you spend your
time in here, aggravating everyone, spilling out your woes and so forth and looking for some kind of
attention.
Have you ever considered that there are posters in here that have been thru far worse than you can
ever imagine and have come thru it, scarred- but okay? NO, you can't- because you can't see that the
world does not evolve around you.
You see, Duffy- some are survivors- we don't hang on to things and obsess- we go on and learn from
experiences- good and bad. We pick ourselves up by our bootstraps, face the experience and move on.
So, when you post how you are a STRONG BLACK WOMAN, you better start showing a different stripe-
cause your posts prove the exact opposite.
The Swami ... [wandering_bear] - 03:32pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#171 of 173)
It doesn't matter whether the perp is male or female; the effect on the poor kid is no doubt just as traumatic either
way.
Only if shes ugly..When I was 12 there were several teachers I wouldnt have mineded jumping in the sack with.And I
wouldnt have felt the least bit tramitized for it.
When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty [wardaddy] - 03:32pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#172 of
174)
Maybe I'd better double that batch of popcorn....
Warning! Scan shows Dave in area! Look innocent. [_maggie_] - 03:34pm Aug 17, 2000 EST
(#173 of 174)
Also, I think when maggie says that she thinks YOU are not the victim, it may mean tha she thinks YOU
are not the victim, and NOT that victims are to blame for the crimes perpetrated against them...
That wasn't clear enough, Dusty? Let me be more specific, in that case.
I do not believe that McDuffy, based on what she has put forth on this board, was a victim of sexual
assault or any other kind of assault. I do not believe that McDuffy was a victim.
Now, just in case there is any misunderstanding about this, let me add....
I do not believe that victims of sexual assault or any other kind of assault are to blame.
Hope that's clear enough.
When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty [wardaddy] - 03:36pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#174 of
174)
How about you, maggie, you want popcorn, too?
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 03:38pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#175 of 175)
That wasn't clear enough, Dusty? Let me be more specific, in that case.
Well, maggie, it IS McDuffy we’re talking about..
Please, Call Me KT! [PureWine] - 03:52pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#176 of 179)
oh, dear, I wanted to come back and comment on what surferchic wrote yesterday but I see this thread
has degenerated.
I'm not even sure what the topic is anymore.
Warning! Scan shows Dave in area! Look innocent. [_maggie_] - 03:53pm Aug 17, 2000 EST
(#177 of 179)
Thanks, Wardaddy. Dusty, point taken. *lol*
The Swami ... [wandering_bear] - 03:59pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#178 of 179)
the thing is now days youve got kids younger than 12 in kids prison for commiting rape..if they can go to
prison for it why sholdnt they be allowed to make their own choices about sex?This is rather a double
standard.
Don't confuse being f'd-up with being complex. [ashcan] - 04:01pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#179 of
179)
"But once the attack happens, that conversation should end and attention placed on the
crime."
...exactly--and I'm failing to understand myself how in the HELL telling a victim or
rape/sexual assault (especially violent acts of this sick, barbaric crime) that they need to
"stop crying about it" or "there were things you could have done to prevent it", blah blah
blah is good in any way, shape, or form...as a preventive measure, yes, absolutely,
PROTECT YOURSELVES AND BE AWARE...but, it is my understanding that victims of
rape/sexual assault often blame themselves, SO HOW THE F**K DOES TELLING THEM
THAT IT COULD HAVE BEEN "PREVENTED" HELP THEM???...
...could someone please settle that curiosity and help me try to understand that...because I
don't see how it helps AT ALL...
Ta,
ashy
Save Roe v Wade [~Libby~] - 04:07pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#180 of 180)
Ashcan, I wouldn't think it's be particularly helpful to "blame" the victim for the incident, after the fact, but it would
be VERY helpful to evaluate how to help prevent becoming victimized again. It gives some power to the person
who was victimized; makes them feel like there are things they can do to protect themselves.
The Swami ... [wandering_bear] - 04:08pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#181 of 181)
...exactly--and I'm failing to understand myself how in the HELL telling a victim or rape/sexual assault (especially
violent acts of this sick, barbaric crime) that they need to "stop crying about it" or "there were things you could have
done to prevent it", blah blah blah is good in any way, shape, or form...as a preventive measure, yes, absolutely,
PROTECT YOURSELVES AND BE AWARE...but, it is my understanding that victims of rape/sexual assault often
blame themselves, SO HOW THE F**K DOES TELLING THEM THAT IT COULD HAVE BEEN
"PREVENTED" HELP THEM???...
Because it doesnt help the vitum to keep focusing on their victumhood.Youve got to let it go sometime.And yes. I do
speak from experiance.
Don't confuse being f'd-up with being complex. [ashcan] - 04:13pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#182 of
183)
"If there was something that could have been done to prevent it I will point that out.
Especially if some time has passed and that person has had lots of counseling, yet still seems
to be clinging to the *Victim* label like a badge of honor..."
...so are there guidlines for this?...how do YOU decide when the victim needs to "learn from
it?" and stop "clinging to the *Victim* label like a badge of honor"?...is not every Human
different and we all heal and deal with trauma differently?...what if the person raped simply
needs more time to recove than others--how do you decide that she's "had enough time"?...
Ta,
ashy
[McDuffy] - 04:13pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#183 of 183)
I wouldn't think it would be particularly helpful to "blame" the victim for the incident, after the fact, but it
would be VERY helpful to evaluate how to help prevent becoming victimized again. It gives some power
back to the person who was victimized; makes them feel like there are things they can do to protect
themselves.
It could help make them feel they're not such walking targets, as many do feel, after being victimized.
Well, that's true.
I don't anyone would disagree with that.
But this *preventing* argument sure blurs into blaming the victim very easily. Very easily.
We talked about it on a thread a few weeks ago called "RAPE".
[McDuffy] - 04:13pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#183 of 183)
I wouldn't think it would be particularly helpful to "blame" the victim for the incident, after the fact, but it
would be VERY helpful to evaluate how to help prevent becoming victimized again. It gives some power
back to the person who was victimized; makes them feel like there are things they can do to protect
themselves.
It could help make them feel they're not such walking targets, as many do feel, after being victimized.
Well, that's true.
I don't think anyone would disagree with that.
But the *preventing* arguments presented on this thread sure blur into blaming the victim very easily. Very easily.
We talked about it on a thread a few weeks ago called "RAPE".
Please, Call Me KT! [PureWine] - 04:15pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#184 of 184)
Thanks, ashcan, for bluntly summing up my sentiments.
Libby, I would think the victim would be overly cautious as it is...they won't NEED anyone to tell what to do
differently.
Don't confuse being f'd-up with being complex. [ashcan] - 04:16pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#185 of 185)
"Because it doesnt help the victum to keep focusing on their victumhood."
...and in MY experience, personally and via relationships with other Humans, if the person is
not READY to start the healing process, FORCING them to by saying, IMO, insensitive sh*t
like "you could have prevented it" DOESN'T HELP THEM EITHER...
Ta,
ashy
Save Roe v Wade [~Libby~] - 04:20pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#186 of 186)
But the *preventing* arguments presented on this thread sure blur into blaming the victim very easily. Very
easily.
Duff...you gave this thread a personal spin when you posted a "personal" email and started getting defensive about
your own situation. I only just noticed that you did that a little while ago (me not paying attention again). I went
back and read previous posts a little more carefully and what I see is you being overly defensive and misconstruing
just about everything written here. I'm thinking this subject may just be a little to close to home for you...and there
are some issues your personal situation that you still need to deal with. This thread is not the place. Not good for
you...or anyone else. I'm telling you as a friend.
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 04:23pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#187 of 189)
SO HOW THE F**K DOES TELLING THEM THAT IT COULD HAVE BEEN "PREVENTED" HELP
THEM???...
ONE MORE TIME: I am not telling you to tell the victims that its their fault, or they could have done this
or that to prevent it. And not in all cases can risk be diminished or eliminated. What I am saying is that
women need to take a more proactive role in their own security, and by segregating them in the role of
helpless victim, you are not helping empower them to act aggressively when judging dubious situations
they come upon. McDuffy would have you believe that we are screaming at the top of our lungs that its
the victim’s fault. But you’ll have to excuse her, she’s currently shopping for a new hamster...
Don't confuse being f'd-up with being complex. [ashcan] - 04:23pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#188 of
189)
"It could help make them feel they're not such walking targets, as many do feel, after being
victimized."
...I know what you're saying, libby, but what if the victim is simply not ready to be told
they "could have prevented it"?...that, IMO is more detrimental than anything else...I mean,
seriously, dows anyone know what guidlines there ae for "determining" the mental state of
another?...my opinions of shrinks and counselers is quite low--I don't think ANY other
Human can know me or help me with my mental anguish but ME...so how do they truly
KNOW when telling a victim "you could've prevented it" that it will benefit them and not
traumetize them more?...
Ta,
ashy
The Swami ... [wandering_bear] - 04:24pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#189 of 189)
The problem is that after awhile of being a "Victum" you start thinking you have the right to victumize
others.
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 04:25pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#190 of 213)
Libby:
We agree for the most part... glory, miracles do happen...
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 04:26pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#191 of 213)
The problem is that after awhile of being a "Victum" you start thinking you have the right to
victumize others.
Bear, that was beautiful...
[McDuffy] - 04:28pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#192 of 213)
Duff...you gave this thread a personal spin when you posted a "personal" email Duff...you gave this
thread a personal spin when you posted a "personal" email and started getting defensive about your own
situation. I only just noticed that you did that a little while ago (me not paying attention again).
Who said it was a personal email?
Did I say that?
It was a quote and it was phrased as such.
I never put anyone's name in this. A quote is a quote.
If someone joked about burning crosses in my front yard... and I post that some unnamed person said
that to me... the only way people will know is if that person comes forward as says "hey, yeah I said it.
What's it to ya?"
I went back and read previous posts a little more carefully and what I see is you being overly defensive and
misconstruing just about everything written here.
Point it out.
Quote me and I will clear it up for.
All of my words are here and this whole thread is here to read.
Is Ashcan being defensive too and misconstruing everything written here?
Refute my points.
I'm thinking this subject may just be a little to close too home for you...and there are some issues
regarding your personal situation that you still need to deal with. This thread is not the place. Not good for
you...or anyone else.
No........I'm fine.
Actually better than I've been in a long time.
This is a forum...and a forum draws responses. If another responds then I have every right to respond to
them...just like everyone else... as I was told.
[McDuffy] - 04:30pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#193 of 213)
WB,
I can't really go along with what you're saying because you've admittied to supporting NAMBLA's
position. So what you're saying makes no sense whatsoever.
It's your position that any child of any age should be allowed to have sex with whomever they please.
You've stated this.
And no, I do not agree with you.
The Swami ... [wandering_bear] - 04:31pm Aug 17, 2000 EST Bear, that was beautiful... (#194 of 213)
wouldnt have called it that. i would have called it an ugly fact.
Save Roe v Wade [~Libby~] - 04:32pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#195 of 213)
Ashcan, I think a good counselor will know "when" and "how" to approach the subject of prevention.
Again..I would never tell someone they were to "blame". I would move right to ways in which the victim
could cutdown on his/her chances of becoming a victim again. I'm not a couselor, so I can't get specific
with you. There are people here on the board with some experience in that area, who could probably
give you more information.
And yes, there are bad counselors - just like there are bad teachers, bad cops, bad lawyers, you name
it. But I believe there are also a lot of very helpful and dedicated people out there, who know how to do
their job. You just have to look around a little. :)
Don't confuse being f'd-up with being complex. [ashcan] - 04:33pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#196 of
213)
"What I am saying is that women need to take a more proactive role in their own security,
and by segregating them in the role of helpless victim, you are not helping empower them to
act aggressively when judging dubious situations they come upon."
...and I agree with you, duh, but I wanna how and when it's time to make the victim aware of
this?...it has been my experience that when victims, liars, smokers, drug abusers, yada yada
yada are NOT ready to admit they have a problem or stop dwelling in self-pity and self-
loathing are FORCED to do so it is more harmful than beneficial...
...that is what I want to know--who decides that the time is right when this is
done?...guidelines?...a manual?...tired of hearing the victim whine?...WHAT???...
Ta,
ashy
The Swami ... [wandering_bear] - 04:35pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#197 of 214)
I can't really go along with what you're saying because you've admittied to supporting NAMBLA's
position.
It's your position that any child of any age should be allowed to have sex with whomever they please.
I didnt say that I agreed with them. But that they had a point of reason. If kids can be imprisoned for a
sex crime then why souldnt they be able to make their own choices about it? you dont agree with me
because I support the rights of a child.a And how they feel about it.The fact that our society sends
children to jail for haveing consentual sex is wrong.
Don't confuse being f'd-up with being complex. [ashcan] - 04:37pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#198 of
214)
...well, I like this thread--it's actually more engaging than the a-hole pol threads being
sprung up around here...anyway, I gotta go home...
...have a good night, libby, mcd, duh, et al...
Ta,
ashy
Please, Call Me KT! [PureWine] - 04:40pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#199 of 214)
Unless the woman exhibits chronic behavior of putting herself in dangerous situations, I don't see how
pointing out how she could have prevented it is beneficial at all. Like ashcan said, most women blame
themselves already- they don't need anything added to it - especially if there is nothing she could have
done about it. I don't think her healing would be dependent on her looking critical at herself and her
"role" in it.
Save Roe v Wade [~Libby~] - 04:44pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#200 of 214)
I went back and read previous posts a little more carefully and what I see is you being overly defensive and
misconstruing just about everything written here. Point it out.
Quote me and I will clear it up for.
Your whole premise that people here are blaming the victim. That would be way off the beam.
Also, there's a post back there somewhere that looked like it was insinuating that I thought women
molestors should get off easy. That would be far, far from the truth.
Are you saying you didn't link a quote from a personal email?
[McDuffy] - 04:46pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#201 of 214)
Also, there's a post back there somewhere that looked like it was insinuating that I thought women
molestors should get off easy. That would be far, far from the truth.
I'm insinuating that you said this?
Point that out and I'll be sure to clear it up for you.
Your whole premise that people here are blaming the victim. That would be way off the beam.
No... it would not.
I can read the thread just like anyone else. I made my main points in post 120-123.
I've read every single post on this thread.
Save Roe v Wade [~Libby~] - 04:46pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#202 of 214)
Night Ashcan...thanks for your input. I don't think we're really disagreeing at all.
The Swami ... [wandering_bear] - 04:48pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#203 of 214)
Rape is wrong no matter what. Age dosnt change that fact.
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 04:48pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#204 of 214)
I don't see how pointing out how she could have prevented it is beneficial at all.
I have never said we should confront victims with how they could have prevented, I Said that we should
generally educate and empower women before they ever become victims to aggressively take action to
become more secure. To confront victims is not my point, and it should be in the hands of counselors
and clergy, not me , and certainly not Mcduffy, who apparently believes that ANY talk of prevention is
fingerpointing at the victim. I think her personal experience has made her deaf to any POV but her own,
and she keeps forgetting that not all her points are righteous.
Save Roe v Wade [~Libby~] - 04:52pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#205 of 214)
Duffy, you had this in your post #120 with no comment. It looks like something I'm suppose to be agreeing with. I
don't even know whose comment is below mine.
Libby
"I don't think as many women are guilty of those kinds of crimes"
do you remember all those Mary Kay LeTournou threads? Standard wisdom seemed to be that it just doesn't
matter as much when its a boy as it does when its a girl. They notion seems to be that boys can handle it
better.
The coeds are back....it's hot.....life is good. [CooterBrown] - 04:54pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#206 of 214)
Libby, if you get the time, and I'll try to if I do, would you see if you can find any statistics on adult female on minor
male (or female, I guess) crime?
I'd be interested in knowing this. Keep in mind that I'm not saying that women commit as many as men.....I don't
need to do a study to know that! I just wonder what the reported figures are, and if there's an speculation that
whatever figures there are may be low.
I'd also wonder what the charges are.
If any of the rest of you get so inspired and have the time, be our guest!
Now......if everyone wants to talk about victims of sexual assault, what they feel and all that stuff, it's real easy to
start another thread.
The Swami ... [wandering_bear] - 04:56pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#207 of 214)
They notion seems to be that boys can handle it better.
Handle it better??Dont you know that sex is what takes up most of the male thought prossess..
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 04:57pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#208 of 214)
Sorry Cooter, I bow to the thread parent and will not post anymore on this subject.... now, on the subject
of hamsters, I may just have to comment....
[Johnnyba] - 05:00pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#209 of 214)
Okay for those like KT who are confused about this let me clear this up.
The problem with this conversation is that whenever the subject of sexual abuse comes up McDuffy
tends to make the conversation about her. She has not been sexually abused or raped. She got herself
in a situation with a sleezy older guy at the age of 17. According to all the e-mail I have from her
discussing this there was not actually even sexual intercourse just extensive foreplay that stopped when
she screamed.
But nonethelss she insists that this is the same as a 12 year old getting raped by an adult.
She made this thread about her when "her friend" Silky Butter quoted something another person had
said to her months and months ago. This had nothing to do with the subject at hand but it brought about
this discussion and it made it personal. She followed this up by making a snide remark about a person
like that not being fit to work with rape victims et.
The ladies here have been saying that a person in the situation that McDuffy says she was in should
have known better. And she should have. The guy made his intentions abundently clear long before
she went anyplace with him.
And like I said, in my view she was not raped or abused anyhow. Not according to what she told me. So
basically most of the subject here is about McDuffy and I'm really sick and tired of talking about McDuffy.
Nonetheless I find the subject at hand interesting as I have worked with a lot of abuse victims.
KT a person who has worked in woman's crisis center's was trying to explain how some women would
come in and then want to take themselves right back to the bad situation that they just got out of.
Everyone seems to be arguing about degrees here. I think we all , except maybe McDuffy, agree that
women need to use some common sense and protect themselves in advance. I don't think its about
browbeating them after the fact. Except ,as said before, their are some who will come in and then want
to go right back to the places that got them troubles in the first place. They need a good cold bucket of
water dumped over their head.
[McDuffy] - 05:03pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#210 of 214)
Duffy, you had this in your post #120 with no comment. It looks like something I'm suppose to be
agreeing with. I don't even know whose comment is below mine.
This was the post it came from:
Johnnyba 8/16/00 1:52pm
And this is my post in which I quoted it:
McDuffy 8/17/00 12:46pm
***And yes, many have said that other posters didn't see much of a problem with what Letourneau did.
I've read that many times over the past year although I wasn't here to see the responses when it
happened. So yes, there has been justification. There has been support for child molesters on this
board. I have even read that many of the "feminist" types here were not hard on Letourneau when all of
the facts came out. Just to make that clear. ***
Libby
"I don't think as many women are guilty of those kinds of crimes" (Libby)
do you remember all those Mary Kay LeTournou threads? Standard wisdom seemed to
be that it just doesn't matter as much when its a boy as it does when its a girl. They
notion seems to be that boys can handle it better.
This is what I was trying to get across and it was part of a conversation with you. It wasn't insinuating
anything. It was back up for the earlier point I made:
and yes, many have said that other posters didn't see much of a problem with what Letourneau did. I've
read that many times over the past year although I wasn't here to see the responses when it happened.
So yes, there has been justification.
So no... I did not think that you felt women child molestors should get off easy...
Since I am known to think such things horrible things about you, I understand how I needed to clear that
up.
that looked like it was insinuating that I thought women molestors should get off easy.
Well, I'm off to a cinema grill with my 11 year old mentee.
[McDuffy] - 05:04pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#211 of 214)
Okay for those like KT who are confused about this let me clear this up.
Yep, clear it up for confused and stupid folks like Kt.
She hasn't learned how to read just yet.
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 05:07pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#212 of 214)
Get salad for your hamster, Mcduffy...
[Johnnyba] - 05:10pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#213 of 214)
McDuffy you have apparently decided that I am the great satan. I am not, nor have a turned against you.
I have disagreeded with you on things and told you so. You could not handle that.
Here you have been dead wrong and you have been pushing something that does not need to be
pushed.
I have'nt said anything here that I didn't say a dozen times before in at least as many different ways. But
after more than a year of trying to tell you this my patience is gone.
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 05:12pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#214 of 214)
Yep, clear it up for confused and stupid Kt.
Now your attributing thoughts and words to to other people.... wow... do you work for Dionne Warwick‘s
psychic line? Or is this some way to turn people against people...
Please, Call Me KT! [PureWine] - 05:23pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#215 of 216)
Getting back to the thread topic (what was it anyway?)...
uhhh, adults shouldn't have sex with children...and... if they do, they should be punished...male or
female... *g
Save Roe v Wade [~Libby~] - 05:28pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#216 of 216)
Duffy, I still don't see how my comments were "back up" for that statement that followed. I disagree with
the statement that followed. I never said you were accusing me of anything horrendous. That little
misunderstanding (which still isn't clear to me) is just a small part of the confusion on this thread. *sigh*
Cooter, I'll try and do some research this evening. I am really sorry about your thread.
The coeds are back....it's hot.....life is good. [CooterBrown] - 05:51pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#217 of 217)
Thanks, Johnny, and thanks to everyone else for trying.
Duh darlin', I was just trying to get things back on an even keel. I didn't intend for anyone to feel disparaged. ;-)
I thought about asking Dave to kill it to head off any further problems, but I've changed my mind. I think that we
should be able to have a discussion on the thread topic without interference.
Since I started this thread, some questions have popped into my mind. I wonder if it's as traumatic for the 12 year
old boy to be taken in this instance as it would have been if the genders had been reversed?
I don't mean to sound like there are double standards of conduct or anything like that, but the actual physical actions
are different, and I was just wondering if the psychological effects could be different also?
I've upped my standards, now up yours. [charolais] - 05:58pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#218 of 219)
I would think it would change dramatically how a young boy views himself and women as he grows
older. I would think that he would have some maladjusted attitudes towards sex in general.
Why wouldn't a 12 year old boy be adversely affected, just like a 12 year old girl would- the only
difference is with a female child, should penetration occur, that would be painful, thus leaving an
extremely negative impression. Most 12 year old girls are not physically mature enough to handle
intercourse
Star the Wonder Beagle for President! [MsRobbie] - 05:59pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#219 of 219)
For more than 200 posts I have watched this debate unfold. I have very carefully said nothing negative
to or about McDuffy, given that I was considered the head "you guy" last time one of these eruptions
took place.
But really, I cannot sit here silently and let McDuffy accuse Johnnyba of betraying her or laughing about
her behind her back. It was Johnnyba, last time, who brought me up short for my behavior toward
McDuffy. In private e-mail to me he made me look at my own excesses in behavior toward her. He did
this gently but quite firmly, and it was the furthest thing from laughing at McDuffy there could be. I, not
McDuffy, was the one who came in for some scorn from him.
McDuffy, not all who disagree with you hate you or betray you. I, too, think you've changed the focus of
this thread from the topic Cooter created to something quite different from that, and the something
you've changed it to is based on your own experience. Unless you've molested a male child, I think you
don't have a personal experience that is on point to this discussion.
Wardaddy, may I have some popcorn, please?
The coeds are back....it's hot.....life is good. [CooterBrown] - 06:06pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#220 of 222)
Char, I'm not saying that the boy wouldn't be adversely affected. I'm wondering if some of the effects might be
different.
I got more questions than answers, folks.
[surferchicklet] - 06:12pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#221 of 222)
To KT and Ash...
I did tell McDuff that if she was being sexually harassed by someone she shouldn't have gone into a
private situation with him...
What she posted was reply number 3 or so... or part of it ... that was in reply to her asking for my opinion.
Not counseling... My *Opinion* as a mother and someone who had worked with abuse victims...
She stated that it had happened several years in the past, she had had counseling for years, and she
was a Pysch grad from JHU...
With that as her background I made the mistake of assuming she had a certain level of maturity and
knowledge. One which she has since shown she does not have.
I gave my opinion, not counseling, but suggested she seek further counseling and exchanged maybe 3
or 4 emails on the topic... I'm not sure, I didn't save them...
I am not upset about her posting the mail... it was hers, but Dave had said not too, and she was quoting
out of context to try and support a position.
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 06:22pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#222 of 222)
disparaged
No disparagement felt. I had (a while ago) intended just to respond to the Silky Butter/McDuffy post and
didn't really think it would have done THIS...
Hi Surfy...
[surferchicklet] - 06:28pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#223 of 223)
Hi Duhoney...
Howizit today?
If I was a word could my letters number a hundred? More likely coarse and guttural one
syllable Anglo-Saxon [Nigel] - 06:31pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#224 of 225)
Man... with all this talk of popcorn I had to go pop up a batch of gourmet Iowa popping corn.
The coeds are back....it's hot.....life is good. [CooterBrown] - 06:38pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#225 of
225)
Maybe we should just get drunk and go naked.
If I was a word could my letters number a hundred? More likely coarse and guttural one
syllable Anglo-Saxon [Nigel] - 06:42pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#227 of 229)
Maybe we should just get drunk and go naked.
I'll stay sober and take pictures.
Please, Call Me KT! [PureWine] - 06:44pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#228 of 229)
Cooter,
In general, boys seem to view sexual relationships in purely sexual terms, whereas girls see them as
part of a romance.
I think the effect is different. How it's different, I don't know.
I'm not sure if that answers any of your questions, but that's my (very limited) take on it.
[Beezus] - 06:58pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#229 of 229)
I am html challenged folks...But Cooter here are some stats/info for ya.
http://www.aifs.org.au/external/nch/issues5.html#female
Issues in Child Abuse Prevention Number 5 Summer 1995 From: National Child Protection Clearing
House
http://www.ncptsd.org/facts/specific/fs_child_sexual_abuse.html
From: National Center for PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder)
http://www.ipt-forensics.com/library/female.htm
From:Female Child Sexual Abusers: A Critical Review of the Literature Hollida Wakefield, M.A. and
Ralph Underwager, Ph.D.
can I count this as reference?? :-)
From: National Center for PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder)
http://www.ipt-forensics.com/library/female.htm
From:Female Child Sexual Abusers: A Critical Review of the Literature Hollida Wakefield, M.A. and Ralph Underwager, Ph.D.
can I count this as reference?? :-)
((Post 230- 245 will be insert as soon as I find them))
[McDuffy] - 10:42pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#246 of 252)
"For more than 200 posts I have watched this debate unfold. I have very carefully said nothing negative to or about McDuffy, given that I was considered the head "you guy" last time one of these eruptions took place.
But really, I cannot sit here silently and let McDuffy accuse Johnnyba of betraying her or laughing about her behind her back.
I responded to his post. What he said and what I said has a lot more to do with the nasty post he made to me. Very much more."
So yeah..
I have been betrayed. Not that he cares.
It was Johnnyba, last time, who brought me up short for my behavior toward McDuffy. In private e-mail to me he made me look at my own excesses in behavior toward her. He did this gently but quite firmly, and it was the furthest thing from laughing at McDuffy there could be. I, not McDuffy, was the one who came in for some scorn from him.
Well, if you have really loved someone like a brother for a long time and he turns around and says that he has never liked you, has lied to you, and has laughed at you all along, perhaps you would understand.
It wasn't anything between you and him.
And he knows how bad he's hurt me...or maybe he doesn't. I'm sure that's not something he'd care about.
I am devoted to my friends. I would do anything for them. But when people keep doubting me over and over and over, I can't let it continue to affect me. A person can only take so much...and I have to look out for myself...and I will. I will never let anyone break me.
But hey... feelings are not all that I guess.
What's that one song by Tina Turner about emotions? Oh well whatever.
I'll put on a couple of sad songs, drink some wine, watch the commentary on Gore's speech, and forget about things for a while.
I spoil myself.
McDuffy, not all who disagree with you hate you or betray you.
This is not about one post or this thread. I am not afraid to disagree what anyone else thinks.
I, too, think you've changed the focus of this thread from the topic Cooter created to something quite different from that, and the something you've changed it to is based on your own experience.
Well, I'm sorry if I have done that.
I started out with post 9 or whichever post and from then on I responded to each and every response thrown my way... as I said I would.
Unless you've molested a male child, I think you don't have a personal experience that is on point to this discussion.
Only if Prince William is considered a child.
The coeds are back....it's hot.....life is good. [CooterBrown] - 10:49pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#247 of 252)
Some great links, Beezus! I owe ya something!
Excuse whatever typos may show up. I have a cat in my lap, and she is rather insistent that I give her my undivided attention.....lol.
Johnny, you are a great help here, because you bring personal experience in working with victims, and so does Chicklet.
I figured that this thread would sort of morph into wider issues if it got some participation. I really wasn't sure what all I wanted to get into when I started it, but decided to throw it up and see what happened.
I haven't been home long, and am trying to adjust my attitude after a long but fruitful day. At least I didn't have to change a tire in 104 degree temps like I did yesterday.
I haven't addressed this on this thread before, but I agree that all of us have to pay attention to situations where we can find ourselves open to becoming a victim of violence.
In Camelot, we could go anywhere at anytime and be safe, but unfortunately this isn't Camelot. Although a child is essentially at the mercy of an adult predator, we can still teach them to avoid certain situations as best they can that they may encounter.
Here I am going off and away from my interests here, but I did say that I though the thread could morph! ;-)
The coeds are back....it's hot.....life is good. [CooterBrown] - 11:08pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#248 of 252)
Duffy, you've done some good research before. How about seeing what you can find on the issues that have been raised as a result of my initial thread header and posts?
I'm not down on women or anything, but I'm interested in knowing if there is more of this that goes on that we know about, and what are the results?
Does our society always assume that women are "safe" with children?
I know that men are worse.....hell, I know a lot about men...lol!
[McDuffy] - 11:14pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#249 of 252)
Duffy, you've done some good research before. How about seeing what you can find on the issues that have been raised as a result of my initial thread header and posts?
I'll do that.
But the article I linked earlier was excellent. It really was.
The author did a review of a guy who feels that kids (like the 12 year old in this situation) should not be referred to as "abused". It sounds like the NAMBLA argument. She made many good points...refuting his sappy arguments.
And she talks about the Letourneau case.
Adult-Child Sex: Is It Abuse or Misuse?
Save Roe v Wade [~Libby~] - 11:18pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#250 of 253)
Beezus...great links...thanks!
Here's another interesting article with some stats:
Women & Boys
The Bureau of Justice Statistics' National Crime Victimization Survey shows:
Overall, one out of 10 reported victims of rape or sexual assault are male.
There was one reported rape or sexual assault for every 5,000 boys age 12 or older in 1994; for girls, there was one per every 270.
Nearly all arrestees for forcible rape in 1995 were male (99 percent), while about 8 percent of those arrested for other sex offenses, such as lewd acts with children, fondling and molestation, were female.
Star the Wonder Beagle for President! [MsRobbie] - 11:20pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#251 of 253)
wardaddy: With butter and Tony Chackare seasoning or plain?
With butter, please. I don't know what Tony Chackare seasoning is but, knowing you, I'll bet it's something hot. I'll just stick with the butter, if I may.
sure the one you need [ex-glencarr] - 11:21pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#252 of 253)
Hi Lara, I hope I didn't miss any posts from you (I'm not wading through all that other stuff!) but I did see your post # 239. I agree with what Duh said in the post that followed. Even if someone does something dumb, blaming the victim only adds to their distress. We've all made mistakes in our lives. Usually things work out but sometimes things happen. There but for the grace of God go I...
The coeds are back....it's hot.....life is good. [CooterBrown] - 11:31pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#253 of 253)
Good link, Duffy.
Thanks also to Libby.
I don't think we've ever delved into this type of issue, or issues, before on this board.
There was something interesting in the article that Duffy linked about (if I remember correctly, and straighten me out if I'm wrong) about some women who didn't protect their children from a known predator being being part of the equation, or something like that.
Keep in mind that I'm not dissing women!!
[lara croft] - 11:39pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#255 of 260)
sure the one you need [ex-glencarr] - 11:21pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#252 of 253) Hi Lara, I hope I didn't miss any posts from you (I'm not wading through all that other stuff!) but I did see your post # 239. I agree with what Duh said in the post that followed. Even if someone does something dumb, blaming the victim only adds to their distress. We've all made mistakes in our lives. Usually things work out but sometimes things happen. There but for the grace of God go I...
Duh and I were saying almost exactly the same thing and so is Cooter, if I read his Camelot post correctly.
I really liked the way Cooter put it best:
In Camelot, we could go anywhere at anytime and be safe, but unfortunately this isn't Camelot. Although a child is essentially at the mercy of an adult predator, we can still teach them to avoid certain situations as best they can that they may encounter.
Perhaps if I'd put it that well, there wouldn't be confusion as to my meaning.
[Hola Mr Tony] - 11:41pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#256 of 260)
Cheers glenny.
sure the one you need [ex-glencarr] - 11:42pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#257 of 260)
But Lara, Cooter's talking about children. You & I were talking about adult women. But I agree that people should be educated to avoid certain situations. So many young girls go to college without knowing about danger at frat houses, for example.
The coeds are back....it's hot.....life is good. [CooterBrown] - 11:42pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#258 of 260)
Y'all know, like so many other things, when children are involved, it all comes back to the parents.
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. [Duh_] - 11:42pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#259 of 260)
I LOVE the TONY Chachere stuff, I can only get it mail order and its GREat... there is extra spicy, and gumbo file (whatever that is) They make a whole line of yummies...
sure the one you need [ex-glencarr] - 11:43pm Aug 17, 2000 EST (#260 of 260)
Tony my black friend! How's tricks?
